More discusion about copyright issues
04-13-2012, 10:56 AM
#11
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 145
My thinking- and I'm no lawyer- is that it's the wording, pictures, etc that are copyrighted- so you can't make a photocopy of a book or pattern and sell or distribute them. The final product of those directions, however, is yours to do with as you please, whatever disclaimer they may want to put on the pattern. It's like a recipe- you can't copyright a recipe, you can only copyright the way it is written- that's why companies like Coca Cola and KFC are so secretive of their ingredients- once the exact formula is out there, there's nothing they can do about competitors using it, and why you can find recipes from books, magazines, etc on websites like food.com, as long as they are not copied word for word from the original source.
I'm not interested in selling things other people have designed, so it's not a big deal to me one way or the other, but I do agree that if they don't want you selling things, they shouldn't publish the pattern...
Again, I'm not a lawyer.
I'm not interested in selling things other people have designed, so it's not a big deal to me one way or the other, but I do agree that if they don't want you selling things, they shouldn't publish the pattern...
Again, I'm not a lawyer.
04-13-2012, 11:26 AM
#12
Power Poster
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Front row
Posts: 14,646
If no credit is given to the designer when selling a quilt made from a copyrighted pattern then that's a violation of copyright as I see it. If the designer says I can't display or sell the quilt, that's only a rule. Rules are not copyrights.
If I was going to sell ten of the quilts then I would buy ten patterns. That way the designer gets what she is entitled to by law.
If I was going to sell ten of the quilts then I would buy ten patterns. That way the designer gets what she is entitled to by law.
04-13-2012, 11:43 AM
#13
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Perth County, Ontario Canada
Posts: 278
You buy ONE pattern = you can make ONE of whatever the pattern is for your own personal use and enjoyment/enlightenment/education... or a FEW of each item as long as they are intended for your own personal use and enjoyment.
For your own personal use and enjoyment and/or education is the key here - the designers are not selling the patterns for you to turn around and create income from them - they are selling you the right to make a copy of the item that they probably put years of hard work, time and creativity into the making of the original.
The purchase price of the pattern is your cost to be allowed to share in their hard work...to be allowed to enjoy their creativity and make whatever they made to enjoy for yourself.
Yes you may give your finished copy away without permission!
Yes, you may sell your finished copy if somewhere down the road you decide that you don't like it, don't need it or for whatever reason it no longer fits into your life (just the same as you can sell or give away any other possession that you own)
However:
Purchasing a pattern with the intention of creating for resale/income and then selling the items you create from the pattern is an infringement of copyright...only the copyright holder has the legal rights and ability to create income from her/his intellectual property.
For your own personal use and enjoyment and/or education is the key here - the designers are not selling the patterns for you to turn around and create income from them - they are selling you the right to make a copy of the item that they probably put years of hard work, time and creativity into the making of the original.
The purchase price of the pattern is your cost to be allowed to share in their hard work...to be allowed to enjoy their creativity and make whatever they made to enjoy for yourself.
Yes you may give your finished copy away without permission!
Yes, you may sell your finished copy if somewhere down the road you decide that you don't like it, don't need it or for whatever reason it no longer fits into your life (just the same as you can sell or give away any other possession that you own)
However:
Purchasing a pattern with the intention of creating for resale/income and then selling the items you create from the pattern is an infringement of copyright...only the copyright holder has the legal rights and ability to create income from her/his intellectual property.
Last edited by JMCDA; 04-13-2012 at 11:54 AM. Reason: spelin miztak
04-13-2012, 12:29 PM
#14
Super Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Illinois
Posts: 9,312
A copy right only protects the copying of the written words. Once a pattern is purchased the owner who purchased the pattern has the right to do with the finished product as they see fit.
Intelectual property would be covered by a patent, if what was developed was indeed so unique , patient laws would be used.
Intelectual property would be covered by a patent, if what was developed was indeed so unique , patient laws would be used.
04-13-2012, 01:01 PM
#15
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Beautiful Northwest Washington
Posts: 19
@ JMCDA and Lori S :
I'm very interested in this issue of copyright when it comes to creating items to sell on Etsy, etc., and after reading both of your posts above, I was curious if either of you have documentation for your statements regarding copyright (i.e. do your statements reflect what you've read about copyright law, and if so, could you direct me to a link where I could read up on that info), or were your statements based on personal opinion/personal experience?
In my own personal experience, I've contacted a pattern designer in the past, asking for permission to sell items made from her patterns on Etsy, and I was told 'Yes, and thanks for asking. Just remember to credit me as the actual designer of the pattern when mentioning it on Etsy, and I'm fine with that' (paraphrase =) However, I'm still looking for a good resource for researching copyright law, so that I can make sure that whatever I do is on the 'up and up', and if either of you could point me in the right direction, I would appreciate it. Thanks!
I'm very interested in this issue of copyright when it comes to creating items to sell on Etsy, etc., and after reading both of your posts above, I was curious if either of you have documentation for your statements regarding copyright (i.e. do your statements reflect what you've read about copyright law, and if so, could you direct me to a link where I could read up on that info), or were your statements based on personal opinion/personal experience?
In my own personal experience, I've contacted a pattern designer in the past, asking for permission to sell items made from her patterns on Etsy, and I was told 'Yes, and thanks for asking. Just remember to credit me as the actual designer of the pattern when mentioning it on Etsy, and I'm fine with that' (paraphrase =) However, I'm still looking for a good resource for researching copyright law, so that I can make sure that whatever I do is on the 'up and up', and if either of you could point me in the right direction, I would appreciate it. Thanks!
04-13-2012, 02:08 PM
#16
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Perth County, Ontario Canada
Posts: 278
I draw on a career of almost 30 yrs as an artist and art teacher. I am an award winning published fine artist by profession who also teaches and sells design packets to the Decorative art industry. The copyright laws that protect my intellectual property in the art business are the same laws that protect anyone in any industry that creates intellectual property - which is automatically protected at time of creation btw. Patents are not required to protect intellectual property from infringement.
I have more than a few friends who have spent years in court fighting infringement claims against companies that thought they could make and sell items with the artwork of the artist on it without permission - every time the big company lost. (think cute snowmen on gift items and a big national store) I have many times had studios teach my designs without permission and without even purchasing the patterns for each student in the class - each time I have found out about this I have confronted them and been compensated for my lost income.
Many times I have had painters submit a copy of one of my paintings to a juried art show representing it as their own work (yes they painted it but it is NOT their own work...it is a copy of my work)
For all of those reasons I went into limited retirement a few years ago and rarely teach or sell packets...although I have a class of 17 tomorrow that I should be preparing for. :-) I am a life long sewer and quilter who now has more time to enjoy my hobby....but I still do my own thing and rarely buy books or patterns.
"only the copyright holder has the legal right to derive income from their own intellectual property" is the accepted legal ruling.
If the copyright holder wishes to give permission to someone else to derive income from their pattern then they may do so if they wish - but you have to get specific permission outlining your intentions in writing for it to be valid...and to protect yourself!
The eventual selling the "one off" copy that you made from the pattern that you purchased is not the same as selling items from a pattern that you purchased for the intention of using to make items to sell - the intention or motivation for the intitial purchase is totally different.
In your experience, the copyright holder decided that you would be allowed to derive income from her pattern by selling items on Etsy...
...the next time you contact a designer - and please do so in writing not verbally for your own protection as a phone call is just a phone call- she may say no and you must respect her wishes, no way around it.
if in doubt always ask for permission! Ignorance is not the best defence in any situation. Creative people deserve every chance they can find to create income from their creativity - otherwise they may have to give it up and get a real job...and then there won't be any pretty patterns for anyone to enjoy.
I have more than a few friends who have spent years in court fighting infringement claims against companies that thought they could make and sell items with the artwork of the artist on it without permission - every time the big company lost. (think cute snowmen on gift items and a big national store) I have many times had studios teach my designs without permission and without even purchasing the patterns for each student in the class - each time I have found out about this I have confronted them and been compensated for my lost income.
Many times I have had painters submit a copy of one of my paintings to a juried art show representing it as their own work (yes they painted it but it is NOT their own work...it is a copy of my work)
For all of those reasons I went into limited retirement a few years ago and rarely teach or sell packets...although I have a class of 17 tomorrow that I should be preparing for. :-) I am a life long sewer and quilter who now has more time to enjoy my hobby....but I still do my own thing and rarely buy books or patterns.
"only the copyright holder has the legal right to derive income from their own intellectual property" is the accepted legal ruling.
If the copyright holder wishes to give permission to someone else to derive income from their pattern then they may do so if they wish - but you have to get specific permission outlining your intentions in writing for it to be valid...and to protect yourself!
The eventual selling the "one off" copy that you made from the pattern that you purchased is not the same as selling items from a pattern that you purchased for the intention of using to make items to sell - the intention or motivation for the intitial purchase is totally different.
In your experience, the copyright holder decided that you would be allowed to derive income from her pattern by selling items on Etsy...
...the next time you contact a designer - and please do so in writing not verbally for your own protection as a phone call is just a phone call- she may say no and you must respect her wishes, no way around it.
if in doubt always ask for permission! Ignorance is not the best defence in any situation. Creative people deserve every chance they can find to create income from their creativity - otherwise they may have to give it up and get a real job...and then there won't be any pretty patterns for anyone to enjoy.
04-13-2012, 03:07 PM
#17
Super Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,688
With all due respect, JMCDA, you are comparing watermelon and grapes. There is a world of difference between the copyright of a painting and the copyright of a pattern. True, neither can be duplicated beyond personal use, for profit or otherwise, but in the case of the pattern, it is only the written instructions that are copyright protected, not the resulting items made by following those instructions.
Look at it this way. If you published a book of "How to Draw Crickets", you would have full copyright protection on the book. No one could copy your book and sell it...or even give it away for that matter. You would not, however, have any right at all to prevent legal purchasers of your book from drawing crickets just like you taught them and then selling those drawings however and whenever they wanted within the limits of reason (i.e., not setting up a factory in China to mass produce them).
The full intention of a set of instructions (aka, a pattern), is to teach someone how to make something. You cannot turn around and deny them the right to make it. The creator of the instructions has no claim over what is done with the resulting items. None. They received their compensation when the instructions were sold.
Look at it this way. If you published a book of "How to Draw Crickets", you would have full copyright protection on the book. No one could copy your book and sell it...or even give it away for that matter. You would not, however, have any right at all to prevent legal purchasers of your book from drawing crickets just like you taught them and then selling those drawings however and whenever they wanted within the limits of reason (i.e., not setting up a factory in China to mass produce them).
The full intention of a set of instructions (aka, a pattern), is to teach someone how to make something. You cannot turn around and deny them the right to make it. The creator of the instructions has no claim over what is done with the resulting items. None. They received their compensation when the instructions were sold.
04-13-2012, 03:22 PM
#18
Super Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Illinois
Posts: 9,312
04-13-2012, 04:06 PM
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 357
Copyright laws are confusing, and where is the legal "teeth" to back up the laws. If designers have all of the quilters thrown in jail for violations, then who will buy their patterns. The way I look at it when you buy the pattern, the designer has control over the pattern itself from people photo copying their product, but controlzing the quilt that is made from the pattern is crazy, as long as you are not claiming the design. I do feel for the designers as they are trying to make a business just like everyone else. That is why when someone asks me for a copy of a pattern, I just politely give them the name of the pattern and where they can buy it themselves.
04-13-2012, 05:24 PM
#20
Super Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Southern California
Posts: 6,254
Me personally I think if people want to sell there items they should sell them and not sell the pattern for that reason. We buy patterns to make items. There are copyrights even in books. To me it just borders on ridiculous, if you got your money from us buying your pattern then to me that should be where their control over it ends.
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10-25-2012 02:56 PM
