"Any artist in any medium should realize and accept that if they put their designs in a magazine or on the internet that they are going to be copied by anyone who likes them and chooses to try and reproduce them in a quilt in their chosen colors. "

sooooo ... because i know there are muggers out there somewhere, i should never leave my house? and if i do leave, and do get mugged, it's my fault? interesting logic. :?

******************************************

please follow these links to some very useful and informative articles on the subject of copyright.

http://qnm.com/copyright/index.html
http://www.phoebemoon.com/copyright_concerns.htm
http://www.copyright.gov/

Let's leave the sound bites to the politicians please......LOL.

My apologies if I offended anyone with my opinion. I certainly would not knowingly copy anyone's work without permission or giving them credit for it if I used it in anyway. Please don't think that I ever would.

I was just pointing out ( rather badly obviously) that the above scenerio does happen, especially in the age of the internet and any artist that doesn't think that it does is really......well I'll keep that opinion to myself. I am apparently in enough trouble here for expressing my opinion.....LOL.

My point is this.........there are not enough quilt police in this world to catch each and every copyright infraction in the quilt world so why not just enjoy our craft, give credit where credit is due and just have fun in the process.

And yes patrice, if someone knew for a fact that there were muggers in their neighborhood and they went out of their house without a really big stick or some kind of protection and they got mugged........well......there I go with my opinion again.......LOL.......I got to learn to keep my sarcasm to myself........ :lol:

I love you guys........I'll keep my opinions to myself in the future on these types of subjects.......at least the sarcastic ones........ :lol:


Linda D.

Strewth! I wish I'd never asked! One thing I have learned today is not to ask questions! I'm beginning to wish I'd stuck to dressmaking!

Karen

A few thoughts as I read through this thread:

Please remember that, unless stated otherwise, no one here is a copyright attorney. We can give layman opinions, but if it were me I would definitely consult a copyright attorney before jeopardizing my home or livelihood. (Have you seen the $$ penalty for copyright infringement? Yikes!) I wouldn't rule out someone coming after me either - designers are getting fed up with the attitudes of infringers.

Copyright principles do not distinguish between different intents or monetary gain; the issue is whether the work was copied (medium doesn't matter either) plain and simple. There is, to the best of my knowledge, no personal use doctrine. Magazines, for example, may grant purchasers of the magazine the right to make a project for personal use, but that is their right to grant as the copyright holder.

If I see a project I may want to make, I go ahead and purchase the pattern, magazine, etc. It is just so much simpler - no lingering questions and it doesn't cost very much. It is also a nod to the designer, putting a little money in their pocket so they can continue to wow me with their creativity. Flattery by imitation feeds no one; supporting designers who put their hard work and sweat into creating new patterns for us supports the industry as a whole.

I've seen many discussions like this over the years, and I've come to a personal conclusion: Those that are genuinely interested in learning the rights and wrongs so that they can do the right thing will - those that offer tissue-paper thin excuses for doing the wrong thing will continue to do so.

Quilting is a textile form of creative expression. We use fabric, threads, tools, machines, patterns. All of which are protected in some form or another. The most important tools we have however, are our hearts, our minds, and our hands. We don't do what we do for glory, fame, or recognition. We do it for love, comfort, and simply because we love to create an item that embodies our imagination in a useful fashion that hopefully will remain as a legacy to our families of who we are. Do what you love to do however you can with the tools available to you and never forget that in the course of life, laws rarely govern the determination of the human soul and its expression. Abide by the rules set up to protect others wishing to share their souls' expressions, but never let that cause you to hinder or suppress your own imagination. There are no leaders and followers, only teachers and students. Learn what you can, where you can and take that knowledge beyond your own boundaries.

here's another way to look at it - if you make public domain pattern, most likely it will be recognized as such - for instance, a double wedding ring - you make it using your own fabric choices, color choices, quilting choices and you love it - everybody else says 'what a beautiful double wedding ring' and all are happy.... no problems

ok, say you design a NEW block (hard to do in this day and age) and you LOVE IT.. and again, you agonize over the color/fabric/quilting choices and when finished you have a gorgeous one-of-a-kind quilt that you are so proud of, and every body who sees it says, 'WOW that's fantastic!'

and you post a photo on here because, naturally you are tickled to death with it and so proud of it, and have never done anything quite so gorgeous in your life and are fit to burst with joy over the thing...

and two weeks later somebody else who said, 'wow, I love that and I can do that' posts an identical quilt...

that's what it's all about... are you going to say, 'hey, that's fine, I'm flattered' or are you going to say, 'wait a minute, that was MY personal design' ??

believe me, just using 'traditional' patterns and all the new fabrics is about as creative as I get but I haven't seen any other quilts like mine...

we did a block of the month in guild - everybody made their own fabric choices and sashing choices and final finishing choices - even tho we all used the same blocks (12) every single quilt is different....

Karen, I think you are taking the content of this thread too personally. You asked a good question as is evidence by the lengthy discussions. I believe that this kind of discourse is good for all of us. You just happened to be wondering about an issue that is subject to a lot of interpretation.

I would encourage you to keep wondering and keep asking..
For every question you ask, you will get a variety of answers. All of them personal opinions and all valuable.

You will read and use the ones most useful to you and your needs.

Its a healthy thing to wonder, ask, discuss and learn.

That is what is so great about this message board.

Don't worry Judy, I'm not taking it personally at all! lol! I wasn't even talking about a quilt, and I did state that even if did create something, it wouldnt have been given away or sold. I was just for the pleasure of making it and to hang in my sewing room!

Karen

I'm also kinda of scared now to and design a new block if I don't spend hours on line making sure someone out there hasn't already done the same block.

I do a lot of rag quilts that are one of a kind, that are donated for charities. If someone happens to have done ths same thing before me am I stealing?

I dont think you need to be afraid to design blocks, quilts, quilt layouts or any of these activities. And your rag quilts for charity are fine..

What is a risk is taking something that is unique that you have seen and reproduce it.

Most people do not fit into the "stealing" category. Just use your common sense..dont let this scare you into NOT being creative and enjoying your craft...

I was the second person to reply to this thread and had no idea it was going to take off this way. Janeen, I am not sure if you are referring to my comment in yours, but I would like a chance to explain further what I meant by my comment.

I would NEVER begin to even dream about stealing someone else's original idea. When I said "Hey I can make that without purchasing a pattern" I was not referrring to anything original. I get ideas for quilts by looking at an interesting layout for log cabin blocks (like Shelley or gcathie or bebe's quilts) or using a very large single star block as an entire lap quilt (like Tigerbaby), or using a combination of two public domain blocks that together make an unusual pattern.

I would not need to purchase a pattern for these quilts because the blocks are free for the taking on the internet. I am smart enough to do the math to change dimensions to meet my own needs. THIS is what I meant about it being inspiration and not stealing.

If ANYONE on this board took my comments to be anything other than this, I apologize to you. I have a room full of books, patterns and magazines that attest to the fact that I have pretty much never had an original quilting idea in my life and am willing to pay handsomely for those who do :D

I am sorry to see that sspingler deleted all her photos from the board and quit. I am sure that it was not anyone's intention to offend her. If I played a part in it, then I am sorry. :cry:

My original post was a paraphrase of a portion of an article I read in Quilters Newsletter Magazine on the topic of copyright law only two days before this thread started! If the professional periodicals aren't getting it right, no wonder we are all confused!

Patsy's Mom

You are correct, and just because you read it in a magazine it isnt always correct..I have read the copyright laws and review some of the law suits brought about and the decisions handed down.

The hard part of all of this is it is intrepretation of the law. and from personal experience that is very subjective, and all judges do not objectivly apply the laws..

The best course of action is to use your common sense and dont copy something that is unique or appears unique unless you ask.. simple. If you ask and get a yes, you are good to go, if you get a no, move on to something else.. and if it comes from your own creativity, just go for it.

I once saw a quilt at a show with Jack-o-lanterns on it. I was too shy to take a picture (it was in a vendor's booth) so I stared at it for a bit and went home and did this. I traced some of my Halloween decorations and drew the vine free hand. I like mine as well as the one at the show.

Judy,

Would you consider what Boston did "stealing"? I have done this also.

I must say I too am a little nervous of posting things here now. I don't want to get in trouble for "stealing". My dh just came in and said he dropped and broke our camera so I won't be posting pictures anyway. Wish I could LOL.

How is this different from recipes? I have recipes for KFC chicken and their coleslaw. I have Neiman Marcus chocolate chip cookies. etc.

I am really confused now.

Oh my, how did I get to be the expert on this subject..

Please know that I am in no way an expert... I have read the law, it is available online for anyone to read... I have also reviewed some of the results of others suits..

So, this is my opinion only....

I think that what Boston did is a very grey area in this issue.. did she steal? no, she drew her own design based on one she saw.. she didnt even take a picture.. did she copy, yes, she copied the basic idea... is it against the law.. .dont know, is she selling her version of the pattern? I dont think so.. so will she get in trouble, Im going to say no...

But, here is what I have seen happen..

Someone designed a very unique quilt for which they received awards and recognition. Photos were published in a magazine, but no pattern.
Some time later, at a quilt show, a very close copy was noticed hanging in the show..It was definately a copy and that person was prosecuted for copyright infringement.

I really dont want to influence people from excersizing their creativity nor from sharing their projects.. I have not taken my pictures down from this board and do not intend to..

I do have patterns for some of my projects that I sell. And I have noticed that some of the pictures of those projects have been downloaded from this board...If I were to see that quilt or pattern being sold somewhere, I would have a case for copyright infringement. If I see someone has made it, how would I know if they bought the pattern or not? I don't.

So a lot of people copy in many forms as the technology today makes it easy. Grab the pic, enlarge, make a tracing and whalaa you have my pattern.. I figure if you want to go to that much trouble rather than pay me the $4.50 I charge for my patterns.. you got more time than money and you have a problem and I cant stop you

I cant sell patterns without posting pictures of the project.. so it is a risk we all have to take...

I dont think that we should be afraid to show our work...
I have tried to figure out how to post my pics in the HTML instead of the attachments, but havent figured it out yet..

And I do have questions for admin about some of the language about using this board and posting on it.. but that is another matter

How did you get the recipe,, did you work there and take it? Are you selling it or selling chicken made with it? I expect not.. so there is the difference..

If you got the recipe out of a cookbook, then I expect KFC and Neiman Marcus have been handsomely paid for their recipe..

Oh and you cant use their name.. You cant make chicken and sell it as KFC.. You also cant publish the old newspaper patterns and call them KC Star patterns.. they will come and get you for that...

Keep in mind, too, Mary,

Bostons quilt is using a very common theme and how many uinique pumpkins are there, or fences, etc.. just like quilt blocks....

They are very common and have been around for a long time.. and most are in the public domain... You are not going to have a problem drafting your own version of a common (and sometimes not so common) quilt block.

You aren't even going to have a problem reproducing a quilt layout, border, sashing, etc. They are way to common to be considered someones unique work..

Go create and have fun and don't worry.. and be considerate of other peoples' work.. If you want to make a tracing or otherwise reproduce someones drawings, ask them...and give them credit..

You will feel very good to say "I was inspired by xxx and I have permission from the artist to use their image"

I appreciate all you do Judy.

Boston, I was just using you as an example because yours was right there.

I have been enjoying this board very much and appreciate the opinions voiced here and realize that is all they are. I'm not in the market of selling patterns or even selling quilts for that matter so I figure I'm good.

Reminds me of a situation here locally with a sandwich shop...this shop was in business for many decades. The line each day went around the block. The owner finally retired and closed shop - he didn't want anyone to take over and possibly make lesser products - didn't want his name associated with it.
Well, some of the employees decided to open a shop (similar name) since they already knew how to make those sandwiches...there are whisperings of legal problems - why? not because they made a similar sandwich, but because they implied that it was the same and only the name had changed.
I agree with the public domain issues of traditional or published patterns. I think a lot of the concerns have to do with whether you are intimating that it is your original design. Often you have to sign a declaration stating whether it is an original design or if you have permission to use it - especially if it being published. If you use other ideas for your project and give credit where it is due (or preferably get permission)you are usually ok - after all, it is almost never an exact duplicate! But each individual needs to decide for themselves where their artistic ethics lie....

I can look at a picture of a quilt and draft the pattern in EQ. I won't have the instructions and may not use the same piecing method as the original. That's why no pictures are allowed at vendor booths of the quilts, many quilters use EQ and can draft the patterns from any picture. I still buy patterns and books but only the ones that I know I need the techniques offered to make it easier.

.....I bet she loved being hall monitor too! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Lots of answers!! :) One time I wanted to make a quilt using a famous author/artists (if I wrote her name - you'd all know her, I'm sure) art work. It was ONLY for two quilts I was making to be used in MY house... she most graciously agreed that I could use ANY of her drawings ANY time to use in MY house!! I've yet to do it, but I still have the email from her stating that I have her permission - do I use other patterns without permission - yes, the ones that are 'out there' but I have never, and never intend, to sell someone else's pattern as mine.

I remember this thread very well...I think Shelley and I had our hands well and truly slapped! lol!
But seriously, the 'holier than thou' attitude of a couple of members, put a few ladies off writing anything on this forum for fear of being criticised.
I did the little wall hanging and to this day I love it ...but no-one but me and my family will ever see it. It hangs on the wall in my sewing room.
It was ironic that the theme of the original print was all about Sisterhood! lol!

Karen xx

i'm disappointed by this. if a person invests time, effort and money in designing and making a quilt she/he believes is orginal then we should not feel free to copy it without his/her permission.

if we can prove it isn't original, the kind and sensitive thing to do would be to send her a pm to explain how and why we can prove it. not to chastise her. but to prevent her being publicly embarrassed because of an innocent mistake.

we should not make fun of anybody who chooses to no longer share her/his work with us because too many others have made it clear they will do as they please and not consider what may be right, wrong, ethical, or fair. that's like criticizing a gunshot victim for standing in the way of the bullet. :hunf:

this is a public board. so we share our work with other within the framework of the Honor System.

emphasis on the word Honor.

I don't sell my quilts so I never thought about maybe I was stealing someones work until I started participating on this site. I grew up combining patterns for garment making. Switching sleeves, skirts, collars, etc. It saved a lot of money in the days I needed to save. Now, it just comes natural for me to look at something and figure out a way to make it my own way. I hope I'm not stealing food from someones mouth, but with the price of patterns and fabric I like to make my money go as far as it will go.

i might be wrong, but i don't think what you described falls into the category of things we're talking about.

most clothing designers today wouldn't know an original thought or idea if it walked up and hit them with a sledgehammer. :lol:

I think most designs, be it clothing or quilts, are basically a new slant on an old design!

Karen

To the original poster, ask ... better to be safe than sorry. There are folks who make their living off of patterns and designs. Think of how you would feel if someone took your pattern because they could reproduce it without buying said pattern or asking permission, yet this is how you earn your living and put food on the table.

Now on copyright laws ... read read read. You'd be surprised at how confusing it can be, and how the misconception is about easy it is to be infringing upon the law without knowing. When I started making graphic designs, I did this without researching the law. But the more I visited other graphic designers and read the copyright laws ... and then of course creating my "own" work (though it was not good, it still is time consuming) ... I realized the other point of view.

Put yourself in the artist shoes and imagine your money walking away one person using your design without your permission, then someone copying their work, and then someone copying their work ... and the list goes on ... man you've lost alot of money all of the sudden.

I can tell you personally, I'd rather be safe than sorry. :)

/steps off the podium

If you don't want your originals to be copied you need to state that it is copy protected and apply for the copy wright and the copy symbal needs to be displayed plus you have to let them know how many years the copy wright is in force and terms of use. If you don't do this the image is fair game to anyone. I made a mistake a few years ago on some of my photography pictures and saw my images on cards on ebay! When you buy a quilting book that basically is paying for the copy wright.

Karen...I am sure it wouldn't be a problem....I took art classes years ago. Sometimes we would use a picture from a magazine for a subject. This question came up then. If I remember right, if you make seven changes to the origional there won't ever be a legal issue. Not that any of us were so good that was likely to ever be a problem. By the way, omissions count as changes....

Ditter

I think it's like pornography - tough to define but you know it when you see it.

If a designer has taken a well-known or common block and laid it out in a new way, I don't consider it stealing to mimic that layout in a quilt for myself. If they have developed a whole new block, then I consider it stealing to use it without the pattern. Just my opinion.

that "process" would not hold up in court.

i'm sorry, but none of this is correct. my originals are my originals and protected by law whether i make a formal statement or not. statements, little symbols, and registration are additional protections, but not required.

i understand the recurring questions. it's a seeminly complicated subject. however, i simply do not understand why this subject always generates such argument. if you didn't create it, it isn't yours. period.

if you want to copy something, and permission to do so isn't clearly published along with the work, then just ask the originator. if you don't know how to contact that person, then pick something else to do. it doesn't matter if the person who claims it isn't truly the person who created it. stealing from a thief is still stealing.

This is all so interesting. Someone upthread mentioned recipes. I don't want to hijack this topic, and maybe it belongs somewhere else, but, what about a recipe in a book I get from the library? Make for my family? Not for company or a potluck? I'm not talking selling. And then someone says, great, can I have the recipe? Do I share?

999/1000 people would give them a copy of the recipe. is that wrong? good question. my guess is that it would depend on the recipe and the result.

to be safe, refer the friends to the book you got it from. they may find other recipes they like, too.

that said, let's do limit this to quilting. ;-)

Having been published or displayed are such things not part of the "public domain"? However, I did make sure that a pattern I passed on was no longer being sold or was available elsewhere.
But, yeah, eg: a library book - I have scanned a pattern from a few.

Okey dokey and thanks.

No, just because it's been published or displayed does not in any way make it "public domain."

The "rights to the copy" known as copyright are for the life of the creator PLUS 72 years.

Just because it's "out of print" doesn't make it "public domain" either.

Ok, let me ask a question - I've gotten confused now - While I never intend to sell any quilt I make from a pattern I see in a magazine or book I now wonder if making a quilt from said pattern is right or wrong? Am I stealing from the artist/designer in making my own quilt for my own home... or for a gift? If the answer is yes - why, then, do they have them in the book/magazine? OR is the conclusion that the selling/giving of the actual PATTERN is stealing?