It's not a gripe. It is a serious issue indeed. Business goes for the cheapest labor and low operational costs abroad. Last year in a news report I heard of cotton growers in India committing suicide because they could no longer subsist on the low prices they got for their cotton. Most of these materials are made for a few dimes a yard.
There are entirely too many profiteers involved in that operational food chain. When the jobs go abroad people must be allowed to buy in foreign countries without paying duties. In this global economy, duties are not due.

I get really red hot under the collar about this issue. If there is globalization then it should apply to the consumer as well.

I am going for a soap box now.

What about woolen fabric?

If I came over with fabric for my friends, would that be taxable? If I am bringing it for myself, is that taxable?

We have not decided which country we will be flying into, but do all countries (England, Ireland, France) tax things I, a US citizen, would bring in for my personal use or for gifts for my quilter friends. Is there an amount you can bring in without being taxed. In the US you can bring back $600 worth of merchandie without being taxed.

I am asking a lot of questions because I don't see how they can tax me on personal property I'm bringing in. This may be a quilting vacation for me.

This upsets me that a few yards are likely to be taxed.

[quote=moonwolf23I know Connecting threads is cheaper because they cut off the middle men. Why don't the LQS's you guys have get together and find out who they are and maybe do one big order, which they can do if they combine their orders?

Or something along that lines. Not sure.[/quote]

I'm not sure just what middle men it is that they're cutting out. If you mean the distributor... well, I can tell you first hand that buying directly from the manufacturer (a.k.a. textile converter) might save you 25 cents a yard if that. (Basically that's enough to cover the cost of freight.) Ditto buying in huge quantities. If you buy 3000 yards (a full printing) you will probably get a 25 cent discount. As to pooling the orders... the manufacturers are not going to consider it a "pooled order" if they have to ship the goods out to dozens or hundreds of little shops. Therefore, somebody would have to take charge, receive one large shipment from the manufacturer, and then break it up into all those small shipments. Guess what? That's exactly what a distributor does! So maybe you can't really eliminate *this* middle man after all.

If the middle man that's being cut out is the textile converter... that means you'll have to do your own contracts with the mills. There's only one that I know of that prints here in the US, and that's Santee. Other than that... well, you'll need to speak Chinese, Japanese, or Korean, because that's where the majority of the fabrics are all printed. Plus you'll have to be knowledgeable about international commerce and all the laws that come into play when you're importing goods. I think this is outside of the area of expertise for most of us, even those of us who own/manage businesses.

Oh, and by the way... most fabric manufacturers do let shops buy on a net-60 basis, meaning they are willing to take the risk and ship the goods, but wait 60 days to be paid. Who's going to manage this problem and assume this risk, for consolidated orders from many shops? Who'll do the credit check to reduce that risk? Or is it cash-up-front only?

Some things are not as simple and straightforward as we might wish.

[quote=Favorite Fabrics] Most Koreans and Japanese speak English. So that may not be as big an issue as we think.

Yes connecting threads the last time I looked ordered directly from the mills. One of the big reasons they can offer fabric at 5 dollars a yard to under it as well.

No reason we can't in the U.s as a shop take a look at mills themselves to save our customers money, or even internationally.

That really stinks! I'm surprised that your LQS owner doesn't have a contract with the importer (or the manufacturer with the importer) about minimum prices for stuff and if he sells lower to someone else, the first buyer gets it at that price, too. (I've seen contracts like that with my CDs when I was selling them through distributors - I could not sell to anyone else for less than I sold to them).

To all the Americans on here, the comments about the various countries V.A.T. (Value Added Taxes) are a HUGE reason why we DON'T want Obama's VAT proposal to go through! We love our comparatively inexpensive fabric prices, but if that VAT tax passes, then our prices will jump tremendously as well, and it won't just be our fabrics, it will be our threads, needles, machines, everything.

Not to make this political, but I just wanted to throw that out there as a warning that we'll be headed the same way soon...

Hey I appreciate the warning.

The V.A.T may need a topic all of it's own. Why not start it?

[quote=Favorite Fabrics]You are absolutely right. There is nothing wrong with being adequately paid for services rendered.

Most shops calculate 10 % defaults on payment into the price (that means the consumer pays it in the end).

Here is where my anger knows no bounds:

How does anybody arrive at prices of US$ 10 - 20 when cotton growers get paid pennies per pound of cotton? How do you explain that the costs of printing are also only pennies/yard because poor people in so-called under-developed countries must eat and therefore agree to work for any kind of wages?

Somewhere in this unnecessarily long chain of many people with both their hands open to receive and the few people who provide genuine services, at some point in this chain of profit takers pennies turn into dollars.

I would be content paying reasonable prices (US$5 - 6/yard) for today's excellent cotton fabric if - and this is the BIG "IF" - if the people who actually grow the cotton and then know how to do the printing using the hard-earned skills of thousands of years - IF they would get at least half of that price.

That would leave enough for doing all those services you talked about in your post. Anybody can do those services. They don't require special skills like growing cotton and creating the end product.

Somewhere in this long chain of paid services the people with the least skills have managed to siphon off the most money.

How about some solidarity with those people who actually create the product? They need some advocates. Who should sympathize with them if not quilters who know the value of good work.

nd if we are just talking about 25 cents a yard, it may cost more to do all that as an individual owner.

I think you have to take in to consideration all the hands that cotton goes thru before it gets the the LQS>
1. Farmers
2. Pickers
3. Clean and spin into thread
4. Made in to fabric
5. Designers
5. Dyed and/ printed
6. Shipped to distributer and LQS

Some of these operations may be done at the same plant, but it still requires different machinery. Each of these operations has overhead, and if the goods have to be transported to another facility that is another cost.

I would be better if we had an accurate rate for each of these steps, but it sure goes thru a lot of hands before we see it. I would like fabric to be less expensive but it sounds like it is relatively cheap in the US. Maybe we need to count our blessings.

What do we need to do? Write our congressman?

Well... the industry just doesn't work like that. Key information here is that "12 months ago" part. Twelve months means an "old" fabric; it's been discontinued by then. So if there's any left, it will be dumped at a low price to whatever buyer is willing to take most or all of it. (There are large businessess who buy exclusively closeout goods.)

Your LQS will likely not have a contract with anyone, be it an importer or a manufacturer. The manufacturers probably do have contracts with mills, but I believe the way that works is that the manufacter agrees to purchase x yards at x price. So in theory there should not be any extra yardage produced. However, if the manufacturer is not able to sell all they have left, they'll clearance it.

You are correct. I've recently returned from a mission trip to Nicaragua so I've seen this issue first-hand.

Yes, the workers in developing nations do need to be paid properly. Everyone deserves to have clean drinking water and a roof that doesn't leak, at minimum!

I think this is a similar issue to "free trade" coffee or chocolate. And we all know, while we *can* seek out "free trade/equitable wages" products, the marketplace as a whole does not work that way.

As long as there are people who are desperate for ANY income, we will have this problem, because they will be willing to take on a job that does not pay well.

Personally, I would be willing to pay a little more for everything so that others might be able to live better. However... I'm one of the lucky ones who has that wiggle room in the household budget. Reading the many posts on this forum, I know that not everyone is in that position. Some of us are living on a shoestring.

So, those of us who can make buying decisions based on moral and ethical issues, should. And should teach our kids or grandkids to purchase thoughtfully as well.

Yeah, I see your point. In my example/case, I was the "manufacturer", not the "retail store" and this is between the fabric manufacturer/mill and the distributor. However, it does not seem to be good business practice to screw over the bulk of your customers (all the LQSs).

I guess that's why I'm not wealthy, because I don't want to screw people over. :?

Those countries have VAT added to each sale INSTEAD of other "fees" and taxes we pay here in the USA.

Let's say the people in Germany pay 20 % VAT, I pay 9 % sales tax (the same animal) here in the USA.

These fast and angry responses to tax policies just won't cut it.

The USA spends more on the military than any other country on earth. More than the next 7 highest military spenders on our beautiful (not yet completely destroyed) planet.
(All told, military spending, not war spending, accounts for between 50 and 60 % of the US budget.)

What you call all those "tax payer donations" is highly irrelevant. In the end, the same people pay (guess who). You need to compare spending on the tax payers' dimes if you want to come up with a rational comparison.

This also applies to prices in Australia and the USA. If the wages are generally higher than the prices can be higher.

Direct comparisons between countries are just not rational. A person who makes US$ 20,000/year in the USA has to scrap by. An Indian getting the same salary on the other hand lives like a king on the Rupies equivalent to US$ 20,000.00.

Let's not compare steak and peanuts.

As I understand it, the VAT is added to the price of the goods so what you see on the price tag is what you pay - no taxes added at the cash. That was how it worked the last time I was in England

To use an example from here ---- a metre of fabric has a price tag of $15.00. When I take it to the cash register, 13% sales tax is added ($1.95), making my total price for the metre of fabric to be $16.95.

With the VAT system, the price tag on the metre of fabric would be $16.95 and that is what you would pay at the register.

To those in the UK, please correct me if I am wrong.

Your are absolutely right.
I know for a fact that it is done the same way in Germany. The price on the tag is the price you pay at the cash register.

Thats a good idea to quilt onto fleece blanket for lap quilts, I can buy oneof those for just £3.99 and 2 would probably do 3 quilts. it would wash okay would it? I presume you would have checked that. thanks for idea. Gwen

Taxes are the biggest problem when I order in the US( or somewhere else outside Europe)
And the larger the order, the more likely you'll be caught for customs and VAT. Sometimes a priority enveloppe will slip trough, then you are a happy camper!

The other problems are sales. Because when I buy something on sale, our customservice will handle it if it was the original price. So then you have to pay even more taxes!

Only when there is a sale at onlines shops at the UK I will order there, UK is Europe and so taxfree for me!

I can completely understand how this issue has so many heated thoughts. If there is ever any special pieces of fabric that would fit into a flat rate envy....please don't hesitate to get hold of me, I would be willing to send a pkg every now and then!
I used to live in England, in Witney, Banbury, Bicester and Greenham Common! They were all for the American-leased bases there and over two different time periods. I was not into quilting when we lived there, but did sewing and I never could afford the fabric off base. I was making the clothes to make it cheaper than buying them, buting the fabric off base would have defeated the purpose.
Too all of you in England-I truly miss your country and would love to go back for a visit of about a year or so!!!
I also am willing to swap fabrics from here for crisps, chocolates and all sorts of neat things that I miss! I used to have a cross-stitch buddy that would swap me XXX mints, candies and crisps for fabrics and threads!!! My kids always had a shopping list of their favorites! Please let me know if I can be of any help.

I don't think it's really a question of the manufacturer taking advantage of their customers. Each LQS knows the cost of the fabric at the time they place their orders with the manufacturer. If they don't like the price, they don't have to order it. But once the order is placed, to expect the manufacturer to go back and retroactively reduce the price on existing orders, well, that's just not going to happen. (At least, not in my world...)

If the manufacturer took too long to deliver the goods, and the LQS no longer wanted it, a shop can put a "cancel if not shipped by" date on their orders.

I'm trying to imagine what happened here.

You see, if as a LQS buyer you're not "on the ball" and you don't get your order placed for a new collection, you might get shut out of the first printing. And then your fabric just doesn't come. The manufacturer may still be "collecting orders" on that particular print, and when they have taken enough orders to reach their threshold for reprinting (1000 yards? 3000 yards?) then they will place their order with the mill. But it could take many months before they accumulate enough orders to warrant a reprinting, by which time the collection is "old hat" and people are starting to lose interest... and so it comes in and quickly goes to clearance status.

There's a whole lot that goes on behind the scenes in this business!

Several websites I use quote prices ex-VAT, as they also sell to people who create finished items (like Irish dance dresses) for sale and VAT is only added at the stage where you're selling to the consumer. So in theory if I set up as a quilting business, I could buy at ex-VAT prices but would then add 21% to my finished quilt price which includes the cost of the fabric. It's obviously not that simple in reality, or we'd all be professional quiltmakers LOL!

I used to live not too far from Mildenhall and Lakenheath in Suffolk I was over the border in Norfolk, and used to go to the air shows there. Fabulous!! This would be an idea, I have major health problems just now for myself and my eldest daughter, but when the are less troublesome will pm you to see if we could organise this. in the meantime I expect others may take you up on this.Thank you for your kindness.

I'd be interested in knowing, if there are any UK based businesses who buy online from US shops, if there's a way to import the goods into the UK without paying the VAT. I guess what I'm asking is how it's handled on the UK end. There's nothing, as far as I know, that we could/would do differently here on the US side.

I'd say tariffs that are supposed to encourage and protect the domestic producers --i.e. Canada or US or NZ or AUS depending on where you are at. Import duties will kill you sometimes.

Hi Gwen, I wash the fleece first if I haven't used that source before, as a couple have pilled more than I like. But generally they wash very well, and I've found that people love how soft and warm they are!

Thank you for quick reply. I will do that.

It seems a natural assumptions that prices are based on various rational considerations.

Rational considerations are the costs of making the product and all the costs of doing business, from advertising to delivering the product to the doors of people as well as taxes, fees and other ways the government extracts money from unsuspecting people.

This is however only the basis for the MINIMUM (break-even) price.

The by far more relevant factor in pricing products has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of thought that could appear rational to consumers:

Merchants in general charge what the market will bear. No research institute, no university, no think tank has better or more updated demographics than the big merchandizers.

Here is what merchants actually do: They use their demographics to determine 'what the market will bear' and then have their cost calculators determine whether this is enough over cost. Enough is a relative term. "The business of business is business."(Adam Smith, Founding Father of the Free Enterprise System, sort of) People are in the business to make as much money as they possibly can. It's the nature of business as we practice it.

This system will eat us all, unless we start to be savvy consumers. When I heard what Chinese companies were doing to manipulate their Indian counterparts out of business I startet hording fabrics. I had much fun and now have enough fabric for at least 10 years.

There is only one lever to get this system back into balance. Stop buying for a while.

Most of the merchants NEED to maintain their cashflow to pay the bankers. That's how we get to see lower prices again - wherever we are. (The price at the product originators is below the relevance threshold. Remember, it is demographics that determines the price. People are more interested in quilting and crafting. So naturally, the craft and quilting store prices are (quite predictably) over the moon.)

I just want to cry. It would be so nice to get matieral for thw US price. It must be the postal charge to get it to the UK shops that inceases our prices so much.!!

I found a new fabric shop in Londonderry today. Unfortunatly I was passing by on business and couldn't stop. A four hour return journey. Stopping and shopping would have made my day!

I wonder about a possible solution. Let me explain.

When I started sending some health-related goodies (Vitamin A, Coenzyme Q, etc.) from the USA to my aging mother in Germany the custom's authorities (and authoritative they are indeed) confiscated US$400.00 worth of merchandise. Outch! Then they threatened me if you can believe that (maybe I was trying to poison my mother with medication that was not allowed in Germany). The supervising office interrupted that insanity.

I am no giver-upper (especially when somebody threatens me). So now I am sending her the same stuff from a British company. The customs authorities check only stuff from "third countries". The goodies are even slightly cheaper in the UK.

Couldn't you find an American fabric manufacturer with a domicile in a cheaper European country?

BTW, I do not pay additional VAT on the goodies I send to my mother in Germany from the UK (I live in the USA). Nobody seems to do any checking. The UK company handles many international orders.

I know of one British fabric company: Makower UK. http://www.makoweruk.com

If having a business located in the UK makes a difference in the prices, then maybe we can find a clue.

UK quilters, how does the price of Makower fabrics compare with the US brands? Over here, Andover Fabrics sells the Makower brand, and they are both priced the same. Timeless Treasures and Michael Miller fabrics are about the same price here too. What about over there?

I have found an LQS that charges reasonably when I factor in shipping, handling and sometimes customs. I say sometimes because it isn't always charged and I'm trying to find out which is correct. We were told for many years that the costs were different because of the US/Can dollar rates, but we've been at near par for so long it shouldn't be a factor. We had a big backlash about magazines here and retailers smartened up, but to be fair to them, they are often charged more per yard than the retail price at American discount stores. When you Americans complain about $7 a yard fabric, I'm really envious!

Would you be envious if, in addition to paying $7/yd for fabric, you also had to pay $1000/month for basic healthcare? (that's what I'm paying in the US for my insurance and deductable - self-employed, here).

My LQS carries Makower and the price is the pretty much the same as the other brand names - Thimbleberries, etc..

I suppose I should pop in here and mention something that has been said before but is worth repeating.

This is true for Canada and quite likely for other countries as well.

If buying from a US-based online shop, be sure that your fabric will be shipped by USPS (the Post Office), not FedEx or UPS. The reason is that you may be assessed large brokerage fees if dealing with FedEx or UPS.

Be advised too that the flat-rate envelopes commonly used for international shipping are NOT trackable when sent by USPS Priority Mail International. Packages sent by UPS, FedEx, or Express Mail ARE trackable. My perception is that most people assume that all packages are trackable and it just isn't so.

About $20 a metre over here. Jelly Rolls about £25 I think that is about$35 I think.

We have to pay in insurance all our working lives but I do not know how it equates to what you pay. We could make this equation for many things, your car fuel is considerably cheaper than ours. but surely it doesn't matter what it all costs we have to pay it anyway, there must be good and bad things on both sides. it feels to me as if what started as a general discussion is getting a little unpleasant, I am very uncomfortable with the way this is going. I do not want to be part of this anymore.

Oh, health care isn't an issue I should get started on. Suffice to say that I can't imagine adding the concern of payment to all the stress an illness causes. My sister in Virginia has just been through breast cancer and has extemely good coverage but is still out of pocket for a lot of money. Forget what I said about envy!

As does my eldest daughter, and I am waiting to see if I have Kidney cancer. it certainly puts things into perspective. This board helps more than you can all realise. Thank you to all of you.