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-   -   Sergers........Tell me about them (https://www.quiltingboard.com/main-f1/sergers-tell-me-about-them-t182859.html)

simpsonfs 03-17-2012 05:33 AM

I have an old Bernina serger that I have put many hours on. It is difficult to thread but I made many many outfits from interlock knit for myself, daughter and niece. I love it for making pillowcases as well. I feel I have really gotten my money's worth out of it but have never used it for quilting. I have dreamed of replacing it with one of the Babylock air thread machines..I am pretty sure they have the patent on that technique and would definitely want to have it. It is a great additional to the sewing room!

canuckninepatch 03-17-2012 05:39 AM

I have a Singer serger that I got a number of years ago and have definitely gotten my money's worth out of it over the years, with making kids' clothes when mine were growing up, and now with my grandson. I don't use it that often, but when I need it - I need it. I made a bunch of receiving blankets with curved corners (so I didn't have to stop and start) in a new born size, and as my grandson got bigger (he's now 5 months) I made a larger size. He loves to be swaddled when going to bed, and so even at 5 months he's wrapped up like a little "samosa". I would not sell it for anything. I may not use it for another year, but it's there when I need it. As far as the threading goes, I'm a visual person, and there's a picture on it with colour coding for the threading of the various threads. I have no problem threading it, and have never had to get out the book to do so. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

callen 03-17-2012 05:40 AM

I have had several sergers over the years & the one I LOVE is my Babylock. They are usually pricier than the others but they thread themselves (the loopers anyway) with a shot of air that shoots the thread where it needs to be. The singers I had especially the 5 thread was a "nightmare" to thread & I had years of serger experience. They only work with a foot pedal but I'm sure someday someone will make one with a button to start/stop. For quilting they would do a perfect 1/4" seam & most of them move the knife out of the way when needed. For anyone who does a lot of sewing I think a serger is a must. They finish a garment off so nicely & makes it look so much more professional. If you get something other than a Babylock, there is also a technique where you tie your new thread to each spool of the ones already on your machine & gently pull the threads thru the guides & voila, your machine is threaded. It is important however, for you to learn to thread your machine yourself in case nothing else works. Hope this help

railroad 03-17-2012 05:40 AM

I purchased one at a thrift store and use it to make pillowcases. Have started a tradition of giving grandkids a Christmas pillow case at the Thanksgiving gathering. THey love them....When they reach the age of 25 they get cut off from new pillowcases, but if there happen to be extras they still want them!

mopec 03-17-2012 06:29 AM

I am a serger lover!! Over 20 years ago I thought it was something I would never use and can't remember what prompted me to get one. I got a White 634D and have loved it from the start. I never make a garment without using the serger for finishing seams. I do not use it for constructing the garment. I made all tableclothes for my daughters' weddings with rolled hems; wire edged fabric for ribbons; wedding veils with rolled hemming; dozens of dinner napkins with rolled edges to fit the season; wonderful flannel receiving blankets with wooly nylon edges-I couldn't begin to count the number; I could go on and on. A serger is set up right by my sewing machine. Yes they are more difficult to thread, but if you are careful you don't have to do that very often, just tie-on and pull thru the needle. I just bought a used 936 Huskylock and already love it also. It will do more than my old serger, but my 634 retains a place in my sewing room. I cannot imagine being without a serger (and I thought I would never use one)!!

mopec 03-17-2012 06:39 AM

I might add that as in sewing machines, not all sergers are good. One that does not operate properly would quickly turn you off of sergers. Do your research.

Originally Posted by mopec (Post 5067474)
I am a serger lover!! Over 20 years ago I thought it was something I would never use and can't remember what prompted me to get one. I got a White 634D and have loved it from the start. I never make a garment without using the serger for finishing seams. I do not use it for constructing the garment. I made all tableclothes for my daughters' weddings with rolled hems; wire edged fabric for ribbons; wedding veils with rolled hemming; dozens of dinner napkins with rolled edges to fit the season; wonderful flannel receiving blankets with wooly nylon edges-I couldn't begin to count the number; I could go on and on. A serger is set up right by my sewing machine. Yes they are more difficult to thread, but if you are careful you don't have to do that very often, just tie-on and pull thru the needle. I just bought a used 936 Huskylock and already love it also. It will do more than my old serger, but my 634 retains a place in my sewing room. I cannot imagine being without a serger (and I thought I would never use one)!!


PolkaBabe 03-17-2012 06:45 AM

I would not be without my serger, in fact I would love to have a second one, this way one would have black thread & the other would be white/light gray. Make a many of my clothing with it. Have pieced an easy pattern quilt & it worked fine.

kellen46 03-17-2012 07:06 AM

If you get a serger get a Babylock Evolve...the auto thread feature makes it a must. A serger is just a sewing machine that does a different seam. There are a lot of ways to do that different seam, so it can be very versatile. I have made quilt tops but I don't quilt on it. I have made bags, clothes, accessories, doll clothes, and it can so some limited decorative stitching techniques as well. The one you saw was on Sewing with Nancy and that show is the reason I traded my high end serger for a Babylock. It is not a substitute for a regular sewing machine but adds another dimension to your sewing abilities.

judord 03-17-2012 07:20 AM

Oh, my goodness! I can't believe the replies I am seeing here. I have had a serger since about 1990. I couldn't live without it. I have sewn many clothes, quilts and anything with it. In fact, I have had 3 of them. The Babylock I have now is the easiest with threading. You have to thread each one separately, but you just push it in and it threads itself. It is so easy. I wouldn't want to make clothing without it any more. It just looks so much more finished and professional with the seams serged. Go to your local store and let them demonstrate it for you; and try it yourself. You will never want to go back to anything else. I don't sell them; I am a nurse, so no advantage for me here.
Judy

patdesign 03-17-2012 07:35 AM

Although the self threading ones are nice, they are very pricey. I have a Pfaff that is older but has a differential feed and I love it, very easy to adjust and not too hard to thread the lower looper. I do not use it that much, but when I need one, I really NEED one.:)

jbrother 03-17-2012 08:44 AM

Have Babylock Evolve and it is a dream to thread. Hurt my knee and could use foot pedal, so I set foot pedal on sewing table and used it as a hand pedal -- just a thought if you can find a company with a machine that operates using buttons instead of a foot pedal.

oldtnquiltinglady 03-17-2012 09:13 AM

I have an Elnita Lock that I have had since about 1985--just because I had to have it (and a salesperson who explained it to me); have not regretted one moment of owning and using it; and it just keeps on keeping on.....I have a White (I think) that my son bought for me at a yard sale that I might sell if anyone wants it. I suggest you get some lessons on one though if you have never used one.....

vickig626 03-17-2012 12:28 PM

I have the Babylock Imagine and also saw the show you described. Mine is the step down from the Evolution and I'm totally in love with this serger. Babylock really did their homework when making these sergers. Don't believe the Evolution has a start/stop (mine doesn't) and probably because of the speed they go. But, mine has a very light touch foot (wish my sewing machine did too).

The cutter can be "dis-engaged" and there are markings on the foot at 1/4" so sewing 1/4" seam is easy. I haven't done any quilting with mine yet but it's on my project list.

Sewing clothes are a serger is a perfect use for this machine since it will seal the seam as you stitch.

My serger has several feet with a variety of uses. Mine can also do some decorative stitches (called the Wave Stitch) which is gorgeous.

Would suggest you see a demo and see what you like before making a purchase.

cflykins 03-17-2012 12:35 PM

I have the Babylock Evolution that you probably saw on television. It uses a foot pedal and does not have a stop/start button. It can use up to 8 threads and there's something like 87 stitch combinations you can do with it. I'll never use that many! You can lower the cutting blade so you can sew without cutting. It is very easy to thread. It is the top of the line Babylock serger so if you're not planning to use it a lot, you can go with Babylock's Imagine (a 4 thread serger for about 1/3 the price) and it has easy threading, also. I bought the Imagine for my daughter and she loves it.

FroggyinTexas 03-17-2012 01:23 PM


Originally Posted by dixie_fried (Post 5061992)
I absolutely love my serger. But, I was sewing clothes long before I quilted.
I have a Viking 3/4 thread serger, not really fancy...I thread it myself. It's easy once you've done it a time or two, and if you can tie a skinny knot, it's possible to just feed the new thread thru if you want to change colors. I only have a foot pedal...have never seen one with the start/stop like sewing machines, but, I honestly have never looked for that feature so it may exist and I am just not aware of it.
I couldn't sew knits without it. It makes such a nice finish on garments...helps make them look more professional, and makes a nice sturdy seam on kids clothes. Pretty much every piece of clothes I sew I serge the edges of each part unless the seam will be enclosed.
Nancy Zieman has a "Serge and Merge" quilt--I will try to find the link to the video.

I love my Baby Lock now that I've learned to thread the lower looper. It isn't all that hard once you quilt being scared of it. I like to make pillow cases with it and have the attachment so that it automatically gathers one piece of fabric to another. The cutting blade is easily disengaged. I want to learn more about my serger and am thinking of getting Zieman's book. froggyintexas

Quilterfay 03-17-2012 01:53 PM

I have an older Singer serger. I would never be with out one. I don't use it daily but it is there when I want to use it. I do lots of rolled hems on curtain and such.

The best thing I did was take 2 classes on how to serge. My instructor had us make a binder where we reported all the setting for each technique. That binder is like my bible.

I am sure you will love it once you get one. It is fantastic for making clothes and having finished seams.

quilt1950 03-17-2012 02:29 PM

I haven't read all the replies, so I apologize if this has already been said. I recommend getting a flatlock only machine. It's quite an ordeal to switch from serger mode to flatlock mode.

Originally Posted by Val in IN (Post 5062096)
I also use mine when I make clothing. In fact, I'm looking to upgrade one of these days and get one that flatlocks so I can put the professional looking hems in knits. I DO use my serger around the outside of blocks that I am appliqueing. It sure keeps the fraying under control. I also serge around the edge of my quilts before binding, again for fray and string control.


SewOK 03-17-2012 03:41 PM

I agree with all the responses regarding having a serger to use. I don't garment sew very often these days, but I use my serger a lot for receiving blankets for gifts. The new mothers love these blankets and a lot of the girls in my church ask me for them when it comes time for a shower gift. I also make my own table linens, as in napkins, table cloths, coasters. etc. Can't imagine all my years of garment and pageant costume sewing without my serger. I'm on my second serger as I wore a Singer 5 thread out sewing Christmas pageant costumes. I now have a Juki which was fairly expensive and it is a real workhorse.

My only advise would be to decide how much you will actually use a serger before you invest a substantial amount of money in one.

Also, as to the foot pedal, if you have a table or a cabinet, desk, where the serger would be used, maybe you could mount the pedal on the right side where you could use it with your knee, similar to some of the older model machines there were in cabinets and had a lever on the right side you used with your knee.

Marysewfun 03-17-2012 04:34 PM

I have an older White - 4 spool - made like a Sherman tank and weighs like it!! I love it - - Only 2 gripes - - it takes 4 cones of thread to run it - and it doesn't thread with a little "air" - - it had the long wire to thread that long looper thread - and you do need that wire!! But - workable? It is a workhorse! When I bring fabric home from the store, I serge the cut ends before I wash it - to prevent fraying damage and to tell me when I get ready to use it that I have already washed it!! I always sew with a sewing machine but have backed up a seam with serging - - - and I consider it bullet-proof - - - if I had to take the seam apart for any reason after sewing and serging? - - - I would rather start over. :-) Fabulous for their purpose - and I admit, I have never tried decorative stuff with it.

Marysewfun

Dawn227 03-18-2012 03:58 AM

Hi,
I am on my second serger, now about 15 years old. I couldn't do a rolled edge on my first one. I am reading this thread with interest.
THREADING HINT:
for those who don't have automatic threaders, start with the far right thread notice your tension write it down if need, cut off a good length of thread DO NOT unthread! Add new cone, tie a small tight knot with previous thread. Trim excess thread, loosen tension (now you get it why I say remember or write down tension) sew through until new color sews through. put that tension back. Now do next one to it same process.
When you get to the needle(s) KEEP WORKING FROM RIGHT TO LEFT do same with thread UNTIL you get to your needle pull length of new out Cut knot then hand thread needle. Repete for threading the next needle, recheck all your tensions! Then all your threads will be loose sew a short seam of thread. take a scrap of your fabric and serge it through so you can check your seam. Make any necessary adustments
I hope this helps.
dawn227

TanyaL 03-18-2012 04:09 AM

This is the way I threaded mine for years. Now I can do it this way. Take all 4 spools off, put 4 new spools on, push bottom loopers through a hole about 1 inch, push a lever. Thread top thread exactly like my regular sewing machine. Do that twice. All four needles are threaded and tension is adjusted. Didn't matter that I couldn't find my glasses and couldn't see the needle holes. Didn't have to tie any threads. Took about 5 minutes if my hands shook more than usual.
Easier to use than my computer! Really made in heaven for older women - but don't tell the younger women that.

carolaug 03-18-2012 04:19 AM

I picked up serger at a consignment store...hoping to start figuring out what it does. The threading just to look at is overwelming...there is not a lot of info (videos) on the web on what folks use them for. I bet the dealers would sell many more if folks understood what they can do.

vickig626 03-18-2012 06:32 AM


Originally Posted by JanetM (Post 5066926)
Dear Clsurz, I saw your post about buying the Babylock Evolution. I just attended a 3 day Serger Workshop held at a local Babylock dealer here in CA. We used the Evolution.....a dream machine. I own an older Evolve. I love my Evolve, and the Evolution is a newer and improved version. The evolution has the Wave stitch (nice for decorative edges), improved safety features, improved lighting, and you can thread both loopers at the same time. It also has an improved jet air threading....a motorized whoosh! Generally speaking the dealer will have very good package prices at these events. Our dealer offered the Evolution 8 thread macine, the workbook, the inspiration guide, 16 foot pkg, a huge decorative thread assortment in a nice case (retail value $450.), additional Gold Standard warranty of 3more years, and $1000.00 Trade-in allowance .....all for $3092.00. If you just wanted the machine, extra warranty, and 6 feet, the price was $1999.00 I would recommend the books though, as they really contain great instructions. My advice to you is to watch for a sewing/serging class or multi-day event sponsored by a Babylock dealer in your area. These events are held for the express purpose of educating the public about their products in the hopes of getting new customers. The number one reason people don't use their sergers is the difficulty they have threading them and getting the tensions right......Babylock has solved these problems....easy peasy threading and auto tension. They are worth every penny!!! Good luck!

I posted earlier I had an Imagine but meant to say Enlighten. My neighbor has a Babylock also but only paid around $900 and is still an awesome serger. It also has the jet threading.

And, I totally agree with you....love my Babylock. I had a basic Janome as my first serger and it was so hard to thread, I only had white thread for it. When the thread broke, I would cringe with the thought of having to rethread it. After a year of hardly using it for this one reason, I broke down and traded it for the Babylock Enlighten (2nd from the top of the line Evolution). It was $1800 but worth every single penny. But I use this a lot for items I sell, to me it's a good investment.

I can also use 2 threads to sew.

The manual is excellent and easy to use. I only had basic lessons when I first bought it. To me, that means a lot if I can easily refer to the manual for answers.

I also have a Babylock Esante sewing / embroidery machine and love it!! In my opinion, Babylock has done their homework and produce great products.

Suze9395 03-18-2012 06:54 AM


Originally Posted by ksdot417 (Post 5062448)
I saw an episode of Fons and Porter where the guest made a strip quilt with ruffles entirely on the serger. It was so cute - made me want to go out and buy one of the new ones.



I made one of those quilts. After it was laundered the ruffles didn't look like ruffles, just wadded up fabric. It was disappointing.

Suze9395 03-18-2012 07:08 AM

I have a middle of the road 4 thread Viking serger. I have used it for garments and home dec. But recently, I mostly use it to piece my quilt back, it trims off the selvage as it goes, "cutting" out an extra step. And, when I take a quilt off the frame, I run it through the serger to clean up the edges of the quilt, I find this makes applying the binding much easier. I would love to have one of the self threading ones, but given how little I use it now, it doesn't seem to make sense.

CAS49OR 03-18-2012 12:52 PM

I have a Brother 1034D serger. I bought it from recommendation from my sewing teacher when I started to sew. I checked it out online and it gets 5 star ratings. It was cheap at CostCo.com. Hubby bought it as a surprise when I mentioned it would work great for knits. It not self-threading, and threading it is hard -- especially when I have to use reading glasses to see. Teacher recommended getting those disposable dental floss thingees to assist, and they do help.

A LQS I have taken other classes as is doing a serged quilt now. I asked what the advantage is (thinking it would use more thread and be harder) and she said it easier to square and press. I didn't take the class.

Rumbols 03-18-2012 12:58 PM

I bought one about 12 years ago because everyone said I should but then they all decided after the purchase to not use them so I have never taken it out of the box. Looking forwar to answers here that might give me some courage to open that box.

Landers 03-19-2012 01:55 PM

I serge my bindings on all my quilts with a serger.

jcrow 03-19-2012 03:48 PM

I bought an $800 serger and had to keep taking it back to the dealer to have them rethread it. I could never get the threads right. Never made a thing with it. It sits under my cutting table. Been there for 2-3 years. What a waste of money for me. Some people can do magic with them. If I could keep it threaded, maybe I would like it. The dealer became impatient with me because I brought it in so many times. Too hard for me. I like my sewing machine.

MadQuilter 03-19-2012 03:53 PM

Had one a while ago but realized that it was an impulse buy. Gave it away.

stampinteresa 03-19-2012 06:25 PM

My friend has one like you want and loves it. I thought the threading was very cool.
However, I have a Bernina that I bought with my Bernina sewing machine back in 96, I think. I love it for home sewing and I too will serge blocks together if I need a quick tie baby quilt. It is computerized, takes a couple minutes to thread but not a big deal. It broke my heart that I did not have room to bring it with me. But I remembered the old days of the zigzag method of seam finishes and have survived. Even have a foot that does a similiar edge stitch if the fabric does not over ravel??? Enjoy your purchase. I know they are costly; but, I made all my daughters clothes as she was growing up; every curtain, most of my clothes and husbands shirts and ties (before they allowed teachers to wear polo shirts with collars.) I still sing serger praises. Thanks for listening.Teresa

lovequilts 03-19-2012 06:45 PM

I;ve had one for years and maybe have used it 12 to 15 times. I'm going to sell it. My sewing machine has enough fancy stitched to overlock any seam I might want to do.

Patty A 05-23-2013 07:39 PM

I have a Baby Lock Model BL5280E Serger that I bought way back when, before they came out with the differential feed sergers. I have made clothes with all kinds of fabrics, curtains, quilts, pillows, done all kinds of mending (including sweaters) and don't know what I would have done without it! I still don't know what all this one can do, can't always figure out the tension right and would love one that does that automatically! Oh, and for flannel, you can't go wrong. I always prepare my edges by serging before putting a flannel quilt together and I know it helps keep those seams together a lot longer even if you use a 1/2 inch seam, those flannel quilts seem to get more use and rougher handling at my home. Re-threading it is no problem by knotting the ends together and pulling as previously described.

khuxford 05-23-2013 07:59 PM


Originally Posted by Rumbols (Post 5070981)
I bought one about 12 years ago because everyone said I should but then they all decided after the purchase to not use them so I have never taken it out of the box. Looking forwar to answers here that might give me some courage to open that box.

I bought a $300 baby lock serger a few years ago. Friends said they don't use theirs and they were correct, I don't use mine very much. I still have the 4 original cones of thread on there!

RUMBOLS, I have a great project for you! At least once a year I get out the serger and make donation pillowcases out of fun kids fabric for the Conkerr Cancer group. The cases go to children's hospitals. Their website is www.conkerrcancer.org they have a pattern out there called the hot dog method. You can google and find it also called the burrito method! I buy 1-1/4 yards of 2 fabrics and get 2 pillowcases out of that yardage. I make 6 or 8 and deliver or mail to the state coordinator, also listed on the website. I sent them some recently and sent some to a group called Hugs N Stitches--the coordinator in AZ for that group said she recently delivered a couple of hundred pillowcases to the children's hospital.

You can also make those Nancy's Notions little dresses for Africa with your serger.

it makes me feel less guilty for spending all that money on a serger when I can make donation items at least once a year.

Smeone had told me to NOT buy a serger that does overlock plus cover lock because they are way too complicated. If you want to do cover stitch, buy a cover stitch only machine.

JanetM 05-24-2013 08:54 AM

Do you need a serger? I highly recommend this 3 day seminar. Sue is a master at teaching and her seminar is not only a great learning experience but is so much fun. She teaches this 3 day event all over the country so check with your local Babylock dealer. They provide the Evolution serger and all supplies. You will know at the end of the event if a serger is for you! I personally think that the reasons that some serger owners don't use their sergers are because they are difficult to thread (not Babylock), have tension problems (not Babylock), and more importantly...they do not know ALL the things a serger can do!

If you take this seminar, you will have 3 binders of instruction that covers everything you have learned. They are priceless.

“Three Day Hands-on”
Baby Lock Evolution Serge-A-Thon Retreat!
With Sue Green-Baker...An Independent Serger Expert
Sue has been teaching serger sewing as long as Baby Lock has had a home serger on the market! She has co-authored several serger books, including Decorative Serging with Palmer/Pletsch, ABC’s Of Serging with Tammy Young, Sewing With An Overlock by Singer Sewing Reference Library, wrote the Sergers In Motion Column for Sew News Magazine and published several serger technique workbooks and booklets as well.
FULL 3 DAY HANDS-ON EVENT ONLY $150 PER PERSON!
AND a Top Of The Line Baby Lock Evolution Serger will be furnished for your use in class!
Students will complete and take home 3 fully illustrated, in color, step by step workbooks with samples! Workbooks (on CD to be printed by Student) & All fabrics included in the event price! (A $249.99 retail value!)
Join Sue for 3 “fun, filled days” to learn the Baby Lock Evolution serger in and out! You will learn how to use the Evolution serger from the “basics to advanced” techniques. You will say, “I didn’t know I could do that on a serger!”
This hands-on retreat is for everyone! If you are thinking about buying a serger, now you will say, “How did I ever get along without one!” Baby Lock sergers “thread themselves”....have no tension dials to figure out...and the easiest serger on the market to change to different stitches!
WHAT YOU WILL LEARN:
DAY ONE:
WHEN TO SERGE, WHEN TO SEW
Threading 4-thread stitch Stitch width
Stitch length
Differential feed
Fine tuning option for tensions
Machine parts
Machine accessories that come with serger
DAY TWO:
How to serge elastic “The Factory Method” 4 methods How to use the elastic accessory foot
How to use the gathering accessory foot
How to use the blind hem accessory foot
Using decorative threads— from the light to heavy weights
3-thread stitch
DAY THREE:
USING THE COVERHEM AND CHAIN STITCH
Coverhem threading technique Making hems, in three widths Attaching lingerie elastic Attaching lingerie lace Coverhem shadow stitch Shirring over elastic
Attaching bias binding
Understanding the cover hem accessories

JanetM 05-24-2013 09:06 AM

[PDF]“Three Day Hands-on” Baby Lock Evolution Serge-A-Thon Retreat!
http://www.suegbevents.com/f/serger_...students_1.pdf
“Three Day Hands-on”. Baby Lock Evolution Serge-A-Thon Retreat! With Sue Green-Baker...An Independent Serger Expert. Join Sue for 3 “fun, filled days” to ...

My previos post does not show all of the things you will learn at this 3 day event. If you go to http://www.suegbevents.com/f/serger_...students_1.pdf you will see the flyer that details this fantastic seminar.

Txsuthrn 05-24-2013 09:26 AM

I have the baby lock enlighten. Late husband bought in 2012 right before he passed away I've never even set it up. It does the threading if I don't use it soon I might as well sell it

reginalovesfabric 05-24-2013 09:50 AM

I have a brother project runway, it threads very easy and I love it, the only thing right now I use it for is the finish out pillowcases I make for a childrens hospital this is my second brother and I love this one MUCH better

Mitch's mom 05-25-2013 04:48 AM

I have 2 sergers and wouldn't be without at least 1. Neither are fancy, in fact, my Juki is one of the first home sergers made. Everyone talks about difficulty in threading, but the Juki is easier to thread than my newer machine. I use them all the time for home dec, quilt backs, edging fabric before I wash it, and serging the edge of quilts before I bind them. I would love to have a top of the line Juki 735 with the cover stitch but I don't see it happening.

cheryl222 05-25-2013 06:16 AM

I also have a BabyLock Evolution. I upgraded from a Babylock Imagine that I had bought used many years ago. I LOVE this machine. I also am an avid sewer in addition to quilting, so I use it all time when sewing clothing, drapes, purses, etc. I have never used it for piecing. Seems to me it would be overkill in the thread use. Prior to my used Imagine I had a Riccar and it was so frustrating and so hard to thread. In my humble opinion, if one is going to buy a serger, go Babylock with the air threading. I know they are more expensive but buying a used one beats a brand new one of another brand.


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