Is there an average thread count in LQS quality fabric?

I'm making several pillow cases as gifts, and it got me to thinking about DD going to college; I told her when looking for sheets for her dorm that we didn't want a low thread count... But how do I know that what I'm using to make these from isn't a low count?

Is there a way to tell when buying - something on the bolt end, maybe?

I am pretty sure that a high thread count in quilting fabric is not a good thing. It makes it more difficult to quilt though for hand quilters. I made hubby some pillowcases for Christmas and they seem to be standing up very well to him using them. I would just buy what I think is pretty, and not worry to much about it.

I've read that quilting fabric thread count should be around 78. (Batiks are around 100.) It's a lot lower than quality sheets. Thread count is seldom, if ever, found on the bolt end.

I've been tempted to buy this new tool to check thread count, called the Roxanne Optimal Strand Estimator (R.O.S.E.). I've only seen it on-line and would love to find out if anyone has tried it.

http://www.quiltersbuzz.com/2006/02/..._fabric_q.html

I think it's not so much the thread count of quilt shop quality but the weave of the threads. Something to do with the weft and warp ratio. I go by feel more than anything.

i know that fine sheets today have a thread count of 300-400. that means that if you have a STRONG magnifying glass and counted the threads, lengthwise and crosswise in a single inch, that's the total number. good sheets start at 200. below that is okay sheets. the thing that makes the real difference is the quality of the cotton. the longer the staple, the finer the quality.

so, think spaghetti.. you have very fine spaghetti, you stand it up in a glass. if you count the strands you have 400 pieces. now do the same thing with thick spaghetti. now count. you only have 200 pieces. same item, same glass. but because the spaghetti was thinner, you can get more of them=higher thread count. vs thicker, less strand=lower thread count.

add to that the quality of the thread. it can be indian cotton, which is coarse and rough because that's what is able to grow in that climate and is very short. it can be american cotton, which is okay, because it's long enough to not have too many stops and starts. and you have egyptian cotton, among the finest in the world. when they spin cotton, they overlap the strands onto each other to get the length they need for weaving. if they start with poor quality, they have to weave in more overlaps. that makes it rougher and it wears out faster. so the longer the strands they begin with, the fewer overlaps they have and the smoother the 'hand' is.

the finer the threads are, the smoother the fabric ends up being, the tighter the fabric can be because the ultra-thin threads can fit more into one square inch of finished woven product. whew!

around 15 years ago there started to be this public craving for fine, expensive sheets, when actually hardly anyone complained about them before. everyone thought they were entitled to have what only the wealthiest had enjoyed before. but when a pattern is printed on sheets, like white print on white sheet, that print stuff is hard and stiff and doesn't breathe like cotton. goodbye, quality!

so for quilting, the thinner thread sheets are not the best. they have the thinnest threads. very nice and smooth to sleep on, but they wear out quickly because....they are thinner.

and that is the story of thread count.

No wonder I had a harder time hand quilting through the Batik squares on my son's airplane quilt!!! I have gotten to where I hate hitting one of those squares, it takes all the fun out of quilting the thing. It's still a WIP.

Butterfly, I always wondered why the old sheets (she probably bought them in the late 60's) that my Aunt gave me when I got married are still nice and comfortable to sleep on, but the new ones I get are crappy, stiff, and won't stay on the bed. I finally bought some 500 ct egyptian cotton sheets, bit the bullet and spent the dough, and I haven't regretted it a bit! They are well worth it.

I have 1500 thread count sheets. They are decades old ( 1973) and still in excellent shape. I haven't bought new sheets for my bed since. I worked part time in a four star hotel in CA and bought three sets of the new California King size, with my first pay check from the hotel. DH thought I was nuts paying that much for sheets. If silk could be cotton, that is how they feel.

Thank you for the lesson on thread count!

Now a question... I've noticed that Moda Marbles seem to be a different fabric than the other Moda prints. Yes, it seems to me like it might be a higher thread count; it is definitely a thinner fabric. I've only worked with batiks a time or two and don't have any pieces right now to compare... does anyone know if the Moda Marbles is printed on the same type of fabric that a batik is?

No, I don't think it is the same. I have both some Moda Marbles and some Batiks, and the Moda Marble feels like the other quilt fabrics I have. It is nice, but printed, where the Batik is a dyed fabric. The Batik feels like a higher thread ct and the Marble is easy to quilt through. But I am hand quilting, I'm sure for machine quilting it wouldn't make much difference.

kudos to butterflywing for the info on thread counts!

I backed a quilt with old bed sheets.....they were 400 count Egyptian cotton, and I certainly noticed a difference when machine quilting. No problems, it just 'felt' like it was harder for the needle to get through.

Butterflywing, thank you for the great explanation of cottons and thread count. How did you come to learn all that? I always wondered why Egyptian cotton was considered better. I just assumed it sounded exotic, a marketing thing.

I've bought Egyptian cotton sheets and always been disappointed. Frankly, for me, weave makes more of a difference than thread count. I miss the old percale weaves. 200 - 260 thread count was just fine with them, and American cotton. I bought printed sheets from the early '70s, back when I was a kid, actually (always liked pretty linens). Haven't been able to get printed sheets for the last 10 years, and I haven't found the newer ones to be anywhere near as nice, comfortable or durable. Any idea why my experience seems to go counter to the "improvement" in material?

Interesting that Indian cotton is considered the coarsest. I've always liked Indian cotton blouses and shirts. Weave, again. I didn't know it had to do with fiber length.

As for quilting, I'm working with solid colors right now. Got some standard cotton at Joann's and when one of the colors turned out to be a synthetic blend, I went in search of that color in 100% cotton. Finally got some in the fabled Kona cotton, but I don't like the Kona at all. It's much coarser and denser than the Joann's cotton. Granted, the Joann's stuff is only decent, not top quality, but the Kona stuff is more like sailcloth, IMO.

Maybe I'm just contrary or backward or something.

after a whole explanation, i lost the whole thing in a storm. will get back on this.

okay, i will start again. i think the storm is over.

egyption cotton, since it has longer staples, has fewer pokey ends. that accounts for the smoothness. it might be woven in the one under, one over weave or the two/two or the twill weave that you see on work clothes. it always feels silky. it comes in between 300 up to anywhere depending on how thin a strand they started with. remember the spaghetti? the old percale sheets were 120 tc. that's what most of us grew up with. i don't know how old you are, but 200 - 250 has been widely available for not more than 15 years.

about 15 or so years ago the thread count started going up. that was a marketing thing, convincing people that they needed smoother sheets. they do feel better, but let's face it, we don't need them. just like you don't need filet mignon when sirloin is very nice too. that was started by designers. okay then.

the old printed sheets were printed with dyes and such that are not necessarily considered healthy today,or they create pollution. the machinery is also heavier and more difficult to build and maintain, and you need more staff to run the work. getting the picture? today's dyes are cheaper, although not as nice, easier to use and less than or non-polluting. the machinery is computerized and automated. less working staff. altogether cheaper to produce.

much of what you see today is not really printed at all. it's stamped on. if you feel a white-on-white sheet, you can feel a rubbery substance that creates the pattern. it makes it feel very stiff and it will not get softer.
it's non-absorbent and non-cooling. in other words, not very comfortable, but very popular. they are usually 200-250 tc.

weaves: if weaves are important to you, then you should understand that sheets do come in several weaves. the most common is the one over/one under, just like most cotton. there is also two/two, and the twill weave, just like work clothes. if the staples are long and therefore smoother, you might prefer one weave over another. but it always, always depends first on the length of the staple. if the cotton has short strands and a lot of 'pokeys' the weave won't feel as smooth.

i also like indian cotton but only for garments. it has short staples because of the growing conditions, and makes a loose, pokey weave. it's great for summer clothes because you can take advantage of it's poorer quality to create clothes that are cooler, and more absorbent. when you perspire, the sweat (pardon me) can evaporate. it's also used for ethnic clothes. but, for those that can afford it, bedding is bought from america. in europe, american bedding is very desirable. don't ask me why. maybe egyptian cotton cottons are too expensive. i know that visitors from england, ireland and the scandinavian countries all send it home. as well as the sultan of bruneii (sp?).

american sheets are considered worldwide to be of good quality. long staple, strong. easily dyed. not as high quality as egyption cotton, but really nice.

the higher the tc, the harder it is for the needle to slip between the fibres without breaking them. if you use a ballpoint needle, it's very blunt and pops between the threads, and if you use a sharp the point can tear the threads and weaken them. if you look at some sheets, especially stiff ones, (they have been overdyed to achieve a saturated color), you can see, at the sewn edges, teeeny holes where the needle went in. they are usually white holes. it really shows on darks. also, because of the overdying, the sheets are not soft.

moda batiks have a high tc and a strong dye, so that it runs as little as possible. the combination makes it hard to sew. the dye is very imortant here.

1500 tc sheet may last longer than you. the thread staple is probably longer than anything i have ever seen.

dunster, one reason that sheets don't stay on the bed is that the sheet manufacturers can't keep up with the mattress companies. the mattresses are getting so high it's become ridiculous. i'm short and i have to climb up onto my bed. i won't get suckered into that again. another reason is that they use cheap elastic - another issue for another day.

you don't need a special tool. you need a STRONG magnifying glass. but if the package tells you the tc and the country of origin, and you don't see any stamped patterns, you should be okay.

joann has a cotton muslin with a rather loose weave that is very popular, because it sews easily. it comes in 108" and gets very soft. but always remember that all cotton will shrink..the looser the weave (lower tc) the more shrinkage. because there is more space for the threads to come together and tighten. in a tighter weave, there would be less space between the threads for the threads to shrink into. i don't know if i said that right.

tc = fibre length. fibre length = smoothness. it all has to work together. whatever is then done to it usually detracts from the good feeling of cotton.

butterflywing, thanks for your great response!

I'm wondering how you learned all this and where I can learn more.

I have to disagree about 200-250 thread counts not being widely available until 15 years ago. That would make it 1994. I've been buying 200 thread counts since my college days back in the late '70s and early '80s. Somewhere along the way, 260 counts came in.

I never bought 120 thread count sheets. I did have some 180 counts, and they were good quality back in the day. I always got them from better department stores, then from Linens 'n' Things when that opened. Then about 10 years ago, I tried a Kmart sheet set by Martha Stewart. It was 180 and it was awful - coarse texture, what you'd expect from Kmart but not what I'd expect from Martha Stewart. Prints had almost disappeared by then, and percale weaves were hard to find.

I just don't like 300+ thread count sheets at all.

Sorry for the digression, but I'd really like to find more info on cottons, printing out your own fabrics (maybe that is from another thread?) and now that you mentioned it, more about the old dyes. I hadn't known they had anything harmful in them.

the 200's and 250's were available, but not widely. if you lived in a college town or a large town you probably could get them. otherwise, good luck. 20 years ago 120's were very common and 180's were one step up. when fitted sheets (yes - i am that old) were introduced, the thread counts went up to 180. that became the new norm. martha stewart has a bottom line for places like k-mart and a better line for places like, , say, macy's cellar. do you know the country of origin? when you say prints, you mean the old dye jobs, yes, they were gone. they were not replaced until those awful prints/patterns became available.

many people don't like the 300 thread count sheets. they feel flimsier, and they are lighter weight. thin strands don't weigh as much. they also have a body-feel that people are not used to.

someone asked where i learned this: my dh is an architect and he worked for rutgers university managing their in-house architectural department. we moved to this town because it was closer to his work, and bought a victorian fixer-upper. shortly after moving here and sinking a lot of money in the house, rutgers dropped their own department and farmed out that work. my husband was unemployed and my tailoring business had not yet taken off. i took a job at an upscale home furnishings store where manufactures made us take classes in sheets, pillows, draperies and such, so that we could knowledgeably sell. it was a fantastic education. we learned thread counts, different drapery styles, fancy drape rods, you name it. they spent a bundle teaching us what they felt we had to know to seel high-priced goods.

i've never looked, but can you google? i'm sure the library books has on the manufacture of household textiles.

set your self up a blind test clip small squares from lots of fabric...yes wallmart too...and quiltstore...don't cheat...feel them without looking make a pile of the one syou like best...then take a look...this is for you no need to report, its interesting...just for you.

old sheets are good because the threads have worn thinner. even though
they started thicker, they are thinner now, leaving places for the needle to travel through. make sure they aren't TOO worn or they will wear out altogether.

right. needles have too much trouble going in and out of high tc fabric.. the higher with a standard width staple, the harder. if the staple was thin, thin it would be fine, like eqyptian cotton. but that's too expensive.

i really don't know the thread count of quilt fabric, but i bet it differs. i've never seen it on the bolt end, but i have seen country of origin.

save your money. buy a very strong magnifier instead. what you're really paying for is the stand to make it easier. i had one years ago, because a friend in the industry gave it to me, and it had a crossmark in the center. when i lost it, my dad scratched a new cross in a good strong magnifier. it worked fine. lost that, too. don't give me anything valuable. hehe

fine hotels are the biggest buyers of highest quality sheet sets. clientele pay for it.

Honestly, I was 12 when I started buying my own linens (in 1972), and I got them in major department stores, not specialty stores. Mostly Macy's-quality stores, but JC Penney carried them, too. Almost all of them were 200s in the '70s, a few 180, then some 260 by the '90s. And I was in the Midwest to start, came east in the mid-'80s.


Not sure if this question was meant for me, but I want to say they were US sheets. But LOL, we know almost nothing is made in the US, so maybe they were made in Japan. Certainly not China, just whatever country made most sheets sold in the US at that time.

I do have one set imported from Australia, bought around 1997, and they've always felt a bit different. I didn't like the feel at first, but they've worn down to softness. The pillowcases are different, with an extra inner piece to cover the exposed side of the pillow.

Oh yes, I've gotten bits and pieces of info from the web and books. I'd like something less disjointed, more comprehensive. Were your classes taken through your company or from a college or textile school?

we were bused to the distributor's main office in nyc, shown slideshows, given samples to examine, shown movies and given seminars, one day at a time over the course of 3 days. we were then questioned extensively to make sure we understood..

Were your classes taken through your company or from a college or textile school? I WENT TO PRATT INSTITUTE, A COLLEGE OF ART, ART TEACHING ARCHITECTURE AND FASHION DESIGN. PART OF THE FASHION DESIGN COURSE WAS THE IN DEPTH STUDY OF TEXTILES. WHEN I BECAME INTERESTED IN QUILTING, I ZEROED IN ON COTTON QUILTING FABRICS.

I came back because I'd forgotten to ask what you meant about the printed fabrics (that's below), and you'd already responded. Thanks for taking time to answer all my questions!

In response to your "HUH" about the Australian sheets, I remember getting them at Macy's, which was selling "special shipment" of the Australian linens for quite a pretty penny.

I was getting lost in all our quotes and responses, so I'm just copying and pasting this one:

butterflywing wrote:

Do you know the country of origin? when you say prints, you mean the old dye jobs, yes, they were gone. they were not replaced until those awful prints/patterns became available.

What I forgot to ask before was, what "awful prints/patterns" did you mean? When I started buying sheets, I was getting florals where they were all intertwined, kind of a medieval look although some were kind of '60s mod. Marimekko was big back then, too. I stayed with mostly florals through the years. Chintz florals got big in the '90s. I never noticed any problems from the dyes, but I gather they had harmful chemicals? I'm surprised I never noticed anything in the news about it. Anyway, were all the large prints the "awfuls" you referred to?

yes and yes. the new type prints were not eco-friendly. HARDLY anyone knew. big business knew. we won't go there. that's a very charged topic.

the other awful was the advent of the stamped or rubbery overlaid patterns. they can recognized by their appearance and their feel. they don't feel like cotton at all. if feels like vinyl was painted on the fabric. it also feels stiff, and it doesn't get soft like cotton. it usually looks like white on white or pink on pink, etc. it is thought to be refined or high-class looking by some people, and it is pretty. but when you feel it you realize that in the summer you will not be cool as you would be on cotton, and in the winter you will not be comfortably warm. that's because the fabric doesn't breathe or absorb or hold in or let go of, your body heat, as needed. each place there is a little patch of this stuff, it interferes with the comfort of cotton. ralph lauren is a biggie here. 200 -250 tc sheets.

Thanks for posting that, butterflywing! :D

Okay, thanks for clearing it up. I never did buy any Ralph Lauren, so I must have missed out on the overlaid patterns. Never had any trouble with linens that felt like vinyl.

about merrimeko. loved it then. love it still. i can still buy it at a local crate and barrel clearance center. the texture now is thicker than quilting cotton and rougher. the dyes, especially the reds, bleed forever, and i mean forever.

i used some recently and washed and washed and washed. i planned to make slipcovers for my daughter. it still rubbed off on everything that rubbed on it, including my tush. ( i was wearing jeans at the time. LOL ) i ended up using it for bbq gloves and potholders for every one i know. who cares if it gets grungy and runs now? i will never buy it again. it's actually manufactured for home dec and i should have known better.

btw, it fades like mad. if you own any, keep it in a dark, dark place.

Butterflywing, thanks for this great lesson on cotton fabric!

I don't know what thread count the old sheets are that I have, but I do know that if I follow this procedure:
1. Wash with no fabric softener
2. Hang them out on a sunny day to dry
3. Put them immediately on the bed without folding

They feel and smell just like the beds at home when I was a child. Just a little rough but soft at the same time, and heavy. I can't find any more sheets like them.

Do they still make any sheets in America? I haven't been able to find any.

interesting question i have to check and see. usa still has an important cotton crop.

fabric softener coats the cotton decreasing it it's inherent cotton-y qualities.
air movement shakes the fibers and prevents them from stiffening, the same way the dryer does, but it smells better, doesn't it? the fibers are actually absorbing the smells of the grass, flowers etc. if there were bad smells, they would absors those too.

Re the merrimekko, I never had any. It was way too expensive back when I was in college. I'd read that it was making a comeback, but never saw any. Shame you had such poor quality when you got it. I'd have called the company and complained vehemently (which is a euphemism for how I'd really phrase it).

Thanks for all your explanations.

I, too, would like to know if any bed linens are still made in the US. I actually did some research on this about 10 years ago, was told then that it's all done overseas but I've always wondered if I missed any mills here.

the merrimeko that i bought at crate and barrel were cut offs from their draperies and upholstery and probably never meant to be washed. however, it should never have rubbed off. i haven't seen it in 1000 years so but i know their quality has changed. i do have one piece that i bought in college. it's a one-yard piece (it was all i could afford). i keep it for remembrance. it's faded on every fold line. it's slipcover weight. i thought i would make a pillow or a vest. i could never cut it. see? i should have.

Many of the American companies (Hugo Boss, Lacoste, Nicole Miller, Hotel Collection, etc) have their bedding manufactured in Pakistan. I just had a 1 day tour of a local textile mill with the owner, so I saw the process from beginning to end and had the opportunity to ask many questions. The raw cotton itself comes from many countries, including India, Pakistan, Egypt and the United States. The USA exports a lot of raw cotton to Pakistan, it is very high quality raw material. Interestingly enough, the cotton from Egypt has decreased in quality in recent years, according to the owner of this textile mill. It was a fascinating day, to watch raw cotton being transformed into yarn, then cloth, the silk screening process to colour the fabric, embroidery, cutting, sewing and packaging. The quality control measures were extensive! I took many photos, I plan to order them into an album, caption them and put into an album in my QB profile.

This is exactly what I was going to say. I like feeling the fabric.

So much info to absorb! I buy a lot of sheets at Savers and have noticed the difference between them if made in Israel, Pakistan, Japan, Egypt. Never even knew those countries made and shipped to us. That's one thing I love about this Board(info you never knew or even thought about) Thanks for starting this thread peaceandjoy!

this is slightly off topic, but in response to Butterfly wings problem with the red cloth. I had a similar problem years ago. DH bought two sets of designer, super soft sheets in the mid to late 90s for a Christmas present to us, one was blue and the other red. The blue was fine, but every time the red was washed and dried, it would literally fill up the dryer lint collector with red lint. On top of that, I was getting horrible headaches every night when we used the red sheets. This went on for over a year and the red sheets were still producing lots of lint in the dryer, and dye was rubbing off as well.

One morning after sleeping on the red sheets, I had a horrible headache and badly stuffed nose. When I blew my nose, out came tons of red lint--guess what happened to those sheets.

Anyway, I'm thinking that the red and blue were both from Ralph Lauren-- but I can't remember for sure. I've never been willing to buy super soft red sheets again LOL.

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Thanks Butterflywing for the info! I learned a lot from it.

good quality quilting fabric is "60 square". Definition...

This is the thread count, when the cotton is constructed, if counted the number of squares in a inch of the said fabric you would have 60, hence the term 60 square. The higher the thread count the finer the fabric, so up goes the quality, and price,
A good quality cotton fabric would be a percale quality, around 500 thread count

we got off in the weeds talking about bed linens so I wanted to get back on track. Btw, i love Egyptian cotton sheets. I love the Kohls and the Walmart house brands too. I have shopped the department stores and BB&Beyond but prices get out of hand. I am happy with my choices.

Sandy

Fabric comparable to percale???
 

butterflywing This might be somewhat off topic but I am making a quilt with some solid percale sheets I have but I need a black fabric and cant find a cheap enough black percale sheet ... Is there a cotton or cotton blend fabric comparable to a 210 percale sheet fabric?? TIA for your help Kat