When your husband says you can't spend his money on fabric do you "mind" him. These designers who feel they can rule the world of quilting burn my butt. I buy a product, I use it in my own fashion and I'm not going to mass produce anything with any of their tools or designs. Just because they say we can't sell a quilt we made for ourselves or whatever doesn't mean it's the law. Pretty "ballsy" of them to think they can dictate to the rest of us. I'm obviously wound for sound this morning. Need to stop venting and get to work. I apologize to those of you who disagree with me and thank those of you who agree for letting me blow my cork.

I have never published anything but I am very sensitive to people using my ideas as their own, particularly without giving credit for where it came from. Even on a job, I didn't like the boss using an idea that came from me, as though it was his own. It could have made the difference between a promotion of staying stuck where I was and the boss going on to more glorious things. These patterns are these people's creativity and the way they make their living so don't "steal" from them.

Which is a blessing for me-------------I think. I don't buy patterns. Sometimes I do draw up patterns based on pictures of quilts.

"steal" what? The pattern?

Then comes another problem if anyone is looking for a problem. I've bought dress patterns and knitting patterns and crochet patterns from Goodwill, from yard sales, from rummage sales. Are those groups committing crimes against copyright laws?

I agree with you ,if they don't want their patterns used or sold then don't put them out for the public to see or buy to start with.
the whole things has started to give quilting joy a stinky pinch.

Well, the pattern was purchased, the designer already got the money for their part.

I agree, I am not the quilt Police,

There are some very separate issues here:
Copying physical patterns and selling the copies - Cleary infringes copyright and is wrong, don't do it.
Selling a pattern or claiming it as your own. (similar to above if you are making copies but if you claim for something that isn't your own that is also clearly Theft.)
Selling a pattern your wrote yourself of a design you made up yourself or is "public domain" like geometric quilt blocks. Appliqués etc you have drawn yourself are clearly going to be original unless you have copied/ traced them so this is clearly okay. If you draw a recognisable character (such as a cartoon) then you may be infringing a trademark, but only if you try selling it as your own or claim it is official in some way.

Re-selling a pattern you bought in its complete and unaltered ( although not necessarily unused!) form so that the original designer has the credit. You paid them in the first place so you are just de-cluttering!

Using trademarked logo'd fabrics to make things for your friends/ family not for sale - clearly okay
Using trademarked fabrics and selling items you made from them for profit - clearly a very large grey area. I think most people can agree that if you made an item say a specific tote bag from two fabrics, both fabrics cost the same. one is a trademarked motif fabric and one isn't, both bags are sold for the same price you cannot be seen to be profiteering from the trademarked motifs. You are selling a bag you made and the fabric is not affecting the price. If the trademarked fabric cost more than regular and you charged more you are reflecting the cost in materials again your profit margin is for your work/ labour. If you sell the trademarked one for more just because of the motifs then you step in to a grey area which is hotly debated.

Selling an item you have made from a pattern.... As long as the maker admits that the pattern is not their own design and that is it from X pattern by so and so I cannot see what the problem is. The cost of the pattern is a drop in the ocean compared to the other costs of making a quilt. Fabrics, thread wadding and TIME. I think the insertion of the words not for commercial manufacture is aimed at the big manufacturers who would make thousands of an item to sell. The designers are trying to protect their income and the work that they put into producing the pattern.

I teach and I make up my own patterns and worksheets and I have a phrase that these are only for the personal use of the person attending class and may not be copied, loaned or otherwise distributed without permission. this is because I don't want one person coming to a class and doing the class then taking my worksheets and handouts away and copying them to give to a group of friends so they don't have to come to the class or buy the pattern themselves. Teaching classes is how I earn my living and so I feel that the time and effort that has gone into the handouts and patterns should be protected or at least valued. I say to all my students that if a friend likes the pattern I would be happy to sell them one, or I would be happy to go to groups to teach the class. I am saying, please don't steal from me.

There are a lot of patterns out there available for free and some have conditions attached. Free patterns even on pay for some patterns websites usually have some limitations on them. however, i have to say that I have been blessed with the generosity of the quilting ( and jewellery making) communities. Each time I have seen no note of if the pattern can be used for teaching, I have contacted the designer and asked. And I have never been refused. Usually the conditions are very simple and common sense / due politeness.
-Give credit for the original design
- Do not alter the original pattern itself or instructions.
-State the original source - refer to the designers website where people can get more cool stuff(free and paid for)
-Share images of the work produced with the designer.
-Share any supplemental information (for example I used a you tube video for a crystal weaving project and wrote my own set of written step by steps to assist in the classroom. the designer asked for a copy so she could post those up with the video for the benefit of others and I was happy to agree.)
-If it is a paid for pattern that each student has their own copy of the pattern/book. (Bethany S Reynolds has that caveat in her books and others do too so you don't need to even ask).

As for the original posters dilemma, it would depend on the design and what the person selling the item said about the item itself. If she had claimed it as her own design I may have innocently mentioned I had seen it somewhere before, because you know what, the person selling the quilt at the fair in front of you could have had their design stolen too!!! but it isn't for us seeing the item to sort it out it is up to the designer. If you think something is hinky then you may wish to take a business card and give the information to the person whose design you think has been "stolen" and it is up to them to legally sort it out.

the difference boils down to what you consider theft and stealing and sharing.
Theft is taking without permission.
Sharing is giving and receiving with permission.

Theft bad, Sharing Good
Ask nicely and most often you shall receive in return.

becks

There are laws and rules....there are those of us that follow as best we can (I personally set my speed control 3 miles over posted speed limit.... snicker) so I break some rules consistently. But there are lines I will not cross. Someday I'm going to probably run into a cop that won't look past my personal rule of conduct regarding speed limits....then I'll pay for my indiscrection...

I'm hoping that some of the responses were never meant to be read as angry or unkind to someone just asking a question.



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This made me chuckle. Recently my husband and I were traveling- he was driving. A DPS officer stopped us and when we pulled over he came to the passenger side- where I was sitting. He told us that we were speeding and my husband said "I had the cruise control set on 74 so I wouldn't go too fast". I looked at the officer and rolled my eyes. He said "Well, if you set it on 70, you'll come a lot closer to the speed limit". I laughed out loud. He was super to us. By law, we have to hand the officer our CHL over to the officer with our Driver's License. He was so great about it all. Thank goodness, we got only a warning.

I know this doesn't have anything to do with quilting and copyright but wanted to share.

Hope everyone is having a great day.

Follow this idea that a designer can decide what a consumer can do with an item made from his/her design to the farthest conclusion you can think of. Suppose you buy a blue Ford 150--obviously a design owned by Ford--and suppose Ford tells you that you can't haul fertilizer in it. Suppose you design a yard stick with baby skunks printed on it and try to tell those who buy them that they can't put a hole in one end, tie a leather lanyard on it, and resell it?
The idea that someone who designs a raw material can tell the people who buy that raw material and turn it into an end product that can be sold is logically ludicrous. froggyintexas

I think that there are 2 distinct questions that I have - and I am not a lawyer - but, I have always thought that a design has to formally copyrighted (and then has the right to use the copyright symbol) to dictate exclusive ownership. Is this Right?
Then is my next thought/statement right?
Just because someone who creates a design pattern or fabric (and somewhere along the line the design is plagerized as I don't think there is a new quilt design that someone hasn't already done) and says that you can't copy or reproduce or sell something that you "created" from her/his pattern gives legal or moral ground to just her wishes. They did not make the effort to copyright their pattern/design legally.

No, the copyright protection is effective as soon as your 'idea' becomes tangible (written, photographed, blogged, etc). You do not have to register it, nor do you have to use the copyright symbol or make any statement that the item is copyright protected (though you can do both without registering if you choose to). You cannot, however, prosecute someone for copyright infringement unless you have registered that copyright, an easy and inexpensive procedure.

In other words, if someone duplicates your pattern directions word for word, they have violated your copyright, but you only have legal recourse if you registered it. The law was broken either way.

I don't see how it would be my business to even interfere in this situation.

Boy, I am glad to hear this. I always thought that it was outrageous that they could tell us what can do with our work after it has finished.

One pattern designer--not quilt patterns--but something else....she used to have such a nasty tone on her website about the copy right....I will never buy another of her patterns. On her website she has really toned it down but still says we cannot sell products we make from her patterns. She sure left a nasty taste in my mouth. It was not even the restrictions...it was her tone. And it was not just me...several other mentioned it which is why I went and looked.

I totally agree that they have the right to expect us not to copy their patterns...that is their work and livelyhood. I just do not think they have the right to tell us what we can do with what we make from the pattern. Not that I ever sell anything anyway.

Surely on some patterns it says for personnel use only and may not be copied or reproduced. These patterns when made up can we sell or make with other people at classes? I 'm confused and does this only apply to USA as I live in uk and purchase many patterns from other countries ie aus and nz .?

nycquilter you are not employed in law enforcement, are you? You do not have a personal relationship with the designer, do you? You have so reason to get involved. I admire your loyalty and sense of offense, but you have no responsibility, nor grounds to get involved. Everyone needs to have loyal people like you around them. Thank you for being you!

nycquilter thanks for this post. It certainly raises some very interesting questions. The whole intellectual property issue has intrigued me as we are doing more with computers, file sharing etc.. I would love to hear a lawyers thoughts! how many of us seen quilts at shows, taken photos and then done our best to copy them. what about music and where we get that. Thanks for a thought provoking topic!

I totally agree. Congratulations for walking away.

It will be a cold day in 7734 when a company tells me what I can do with something I make myself.

AMEN! I feel the same way ---- I buy the pattern, therefore it is mine. I still believe the copyright laws mean that I can't take the pattern, copy IT, and claim the pattern as MINE. Nope --- we went thru this with stained glass pattern books. One said we weren't to copy it in any way, shape or form. IMPOSSIBLE to use the pattern for stained glass if you don't copy it!!! I called the publisher, told them the problem, and they said it's okay to copy for patterns, okay to sell the piece I made, that I wasn't to copy the pattern and sell the PATTERN as mine! Would have been much easier if they'd say that!!!

I would leave the issue of following the copyright stipulations up to the quilter. I have never bought a quilt pattern. They are easy enough to look at and duplicate on my own. So I may have gleaned lots of ideas from quilts I have seen, but they are nobody's exact "pattern". The quilt you saw at a show may have been made the same way-- by inspiration, rather than pattern.

I agree that the Tabberone site is not reliable or lawsuit-proof. Plus, the "patterns" they are referring to are clothing patterns, which involve templates, rather than artwork or written words. People on knitting sites quote Tabberone all the time, to get around copyright on knitting patterns, which are written words, rather than shape templates, as the Tabberone article is talking about. Apples and Oranges...

you are right on grannieannie I just ignore them if it was such a rule so cut and dried why are there copy cats in the pattern making world I'm refering to stack and whack by one person one block wonder by another same pattern also the twist pattern I did it when it was called square dance then somone comes along and changes the namethere are to many of them out there to name them all they just want money money so they try to scare the little guy I don't even buy magazines any more to much free stuff on the internet and have never been told what we can do with that

Ok my solution...the orgnial designer...shouldn't have designed it, then she wouldn't have to worry about it being sold and thats all I have to say about that.

That's it. This is ridiculous. I am fairly new to quilting and don't have to worry about this because likely no one would buy what I make yet, but anyhow since the rule is not more than 10 when I'm good at it I'm going to make just 11 of everything and sell it and get away with it every time because I like to feel like I'm doing something bad.

Really. I thought anyone that quilted had to be good people, but now I'm not so sure. There's quilting ladies suing each other? Like I said before I haven't done a lot of it yet, but their are hundreds upon hundreds of patterns out there. You can never know for sure if you are the original. Quilting was started as a means to keep everyone warm at night using scraps and old clothing no longer worn and now it's turned into something ugly.

I've contacted a few people to get permission to sell their patterns, all but one have had no problem, they just request that you limit the number you sell at any given time and that you give them credit for the design and indicate which pattern it is. Often they'll ask if you will send them a picture of the completed item so they can include it in their gallery. I really think that it's important to give credit where credit is due. When I see something like what you saw at a show, I just hope they're doing just that.

Dodie - - -

Stack & Whack and One Block Wonder are similar but not exactly the same. The basic cutting directions are pretty much the same between the 2 styles. The big difference comes from putting the blocks together. the Stack & Whack gives you individual swirling blocks, set apart by solid trianges and the OBW gives you a watercolor, soft blending look.

As far as the rest of this discussion goes, the copyright law applies to someone taking a pattern, copying it and re-selling it under their name. Unless specifically stated otherwise, there is NOTHING wrong with making a quilt, displaying it in a show or selling a quilt (credit should be given) you made from a particular pattern, provided you're not mass-producing hundreds and hundreds of the same quilt. In a quilt show, for example, a quilter will state in the description information, the name of the pattern and the designer.

As far as quilt block patterns that have been around 'forever' - - - they're considered public domain and can be used without recrimination, just like we can sing 'Happy Birthday' without the threat of being thrown in jail. lol

We need to remember that these designers who make the quilt patterns we enjoy do this for a living. It's their livelihood. It's their creative talent and their time, energy and effort we're paying for. I can't tell how many times I've read in threads on this board, people asking how to make 'such-and-such' a pattern - - basically asking for the calculations and how to cut/measure. That is what we're getting when we purchase a pattern. They want to know how to MAKE a particular pattern without having to PAY for it. To me, that is wrong. Just my opinion - - -

Jane

How are you stealing from them? Really!!! There is no theft involved!

This all reminds me of the issue of people posting pictures out on the internet -- whether Facebook or Youtube -- and THEN claiming other people shouldn't re-post them or people using them in other ways. you post it on the computer, it's fair game. You sell your patterns, it's fair game.

How ridiculous it is that the designer is trying to control how many quilts you can make and sell. I have never heard of this before. I agree with everyone else that you should be able to make as many as you want and do with them as you see fit. They are selling the pattern and nothing else.

The only thing that is actually copyrighted is the actual pattern itself. You can't copy it, call it your own pattern or design and sell it under your own name. . . much like a book. I can't copy a book and publish or sell it under my own name. However, I can tell the story of it to anyone I want. I am a retired musician. Music copyrights are like this as well.

So yes, you can buy the pattern and make the quilt and sell it. However, you can't copy the pattern and give the copy to someone else without the copyright-holders permission. If they allow you to copy it a few times, great. Otherwise, if someone else wanted the pattern you'll have to give them yours or they'll have to buy it. But again, the resulting quilt is yours to do with as you wish.

If something is that easy to copy why try to control it? Whoever compared this to downloading music/file sharing is right. If something is that easy to copy I don't think there is a lot you can do. I'm new to quilting and I have never bought a pattern. So much of it's free on line or you can often figure it out just by looking at a picture.

Isn't this a little like saying the only person allowed to sell shirts with sleeves is the person that invented sleeves?