Missing something simple - skipped stitches
05-10-2013, 09:42 AM
#31
Super Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Not Here
Posts: 3,817
Originally Posted by MadCow333
Okay, I ran all of this by Mom, and she said her 401A has never skipped stitches. The school's Slant machines (404, 401, 403, 501, 503) didn't, either. (Only the Touch & Swears did that, and she evicted all of them and replaced them with Japanese Kenmores, lol.)
The only thing she could think of that has not already been covered in this particular Slant discussion is needle either a smidge too high or too low and did you try setting it higher or lower in the needle clamp.
eta: I was NOT laughing at you, AA/Tammi. I was just amused by the solution, that apparently one prima dona needs to do things "by the book."
The only thing she could think of that has not already been covered in this particular Slant discussion is needle either a smidge too high or too low and did you try setting it higher or lower in the needle clamp.
eta: I was NOT laughing at you, AA/Tammi. I was just amused by the solution, that apparently one prima dona needs to do things "by the book."
The weird part is, I've had 3 of the machines now skip stitches, and I often see them in our version of Craigslist for sale with people saying "it skips the odd stitch". This is all of the machines 401, 403, 500, 503. The 411Gs, and 431Gs were always advertised differently - "Singer sewing machine" - I recognize them by the color when they come up.
1 of them I was able to fix the skipping with tension adjustments. One was the first 431G, and when I timed it like the rest after removing and repairing the hook, stitched fine, and then this one, the prima donna
I suppose I should post a pic of the lady, since she's been the subject of all this talk 
I'll go clean up the desk and snap one. Working for the school board in a previous life, I've met a few home ec teachers over the years, no one liked the Touch and swears. They usually said that the kids didn't either. What a shame. You can't learn to love to sew if the machine hates it. My first sewing machine was a 290C. It didn't say Touch and Sew on it, but it basically was, including the wind in place bobbin. When I was 10 and first got it, I learned to wear safety goggles when winding the bobbin. It took me about 25 more years to "embrace" sewing, and a treadle to show me that sewing machines didn't all hate me.
The dumb thing is, it was a Singer, and my dad bought it new. He would have been able to take me to "free" lessons, and I wouldn't have had half the trouble I did with it.I fully seated the needles every time, because that's what the owner's manual says to do. That said, I did end up lowering the needlebar about 1/32", so that would accomplish the same thing as short seating it, and it may be one of the things that fixed the issue, so kudos for your mom for suggesting it.
Originally Posted by J Miller
Tammi,
Glad you got yours fixed.
Been walking around the house checking our slant needle machines.
T&S 778: Looks to be timed dead on or a tinsy bit late. Don't know how it sews, I haven't had a chance to test it yet.
401A: Timed up late, but sews great and doesn't skip stitches.
500: Dead on. Sews great, no skipped stitches
4622A: Can't tell, no timing marks, but it sews great, no skipped stitches.
Joe
Glad you got yours fixed.
Been walking around the house checking our slant needle machines.
T&S 778: Looks to be timed dead on or a tinsy bit late. Don't know how it sews, I haven't had a chance to test it yet.
401A: Timed up late, but sews great and doesn't skip stitches.
500: Dead on. Sews great, no skipped stitches
4622A: Can't tell, no timing marks, but it sews great, no skipped stitches.
Joe
Just to clarify, the needle arrives late, or the hook does?
If there are no timing lines, when the needlebar has risen about 5/64" from bottomed, on the upswing, the tip of the hook should be behind the eye of the needle, and I think the Slant manual said 1/64" above the eye of the needle. The general principle of how a machine makes stitches won't change, so that's what I use to "eyeball" a machine without timing lines.
That and "oh look! It grabs the thread everytime!"
Last edited by ArchaicArcane; 05-10-2013 at 09:46 AM.
05-10-2013, 11:17 AM
#32
Super Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 8,091
Tammi,
The needles were to the timing mark on the up swing and the hook wasn't quite there yet.
On the 4622 the needle was on the up swing at about what you said when the hook got there.
I pulled the nose off of it and twisted my self this way and that using a flashlight and never could see timing marks on that needle bar. But there is so much sheet metal and junk under the nose of that machine I could have missed it.
All I know is all of these machines but the T&S have been used and sew nicely.
I haven't gotten to the T&S yet. It's next in queue.
Joe
The needles were to the timing mark on the up swing and the hook wasn't quite there yet.
On the 4622 the needle was on the up swing at about what you said when the hook got there.
I pulled the nose off of it and twisted my self this way and that using a flashlight and never could see timing marks on that needle bar. But there is so much sheet metal and junk under the nose of that machine I could have missed it.
All I know is all of these machines but the T&S have been used and sew nicely.
I haven't gotten to the T&S yet. It's next in queue.
Joe
05-10-2013, 12:42 PM
#33
Super Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Northern CA near Sacramento
Posts: 1,107
Industry standards are to lower the needle to DBC (dead bottom center, aka it's lowest point). The raise the needle .092". The point of the hook should now be in the middle of the scarf, the cut out on the side of the needle opposite the long groove. On household needles that is the side with the flat. If it isn't then the hook needs to be rotated until it is. To rotate the hook, one usually needs to loosen set screws on the hook shaft, and then rotate the hook by hand.
Some machines need to have the hook tip very slightly before the scarf and some more into the scarf.
On Singer machines with the timing marks the .092" is when the bottom timing mark is just at the lower end of the needlebar bushing. Knowing that helps to set a needlebar that has been previously moved.
Cathy
Some machines need to have the hook tip very slightly before the scarf and some more into the scarf.
On Singer machines with the timing marks the .092" is when the bottom timing mark is just at the lower end of the needlebar bushing. Knowing that helps to set a needlebar that has been previously moved.
Cathy
05-10-2013, 01:39 PM
#35
Super Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Not Here
Posts: 3,817
Originally Posted by J Miller
Tammi,
The needles were to the timing mark on the up swing and the hook wasn't quite there yet.
On the 4622 the needle was on the up swing at about what you said when the hook got there.
I pulled the nose off of it and twisted my self this way and that using a flashlight and never could see timing marks on that needle bar. But there is so much sheet metal and junk under the nose of that machine I could have missed it.
All I know is all of these machines but the T&S have been used and sew nicely.
I haven't gotten to the T&S yet. It's next in queue.
Joe
The needles were to the timing mark on the up swing and the hook wasn't quite there yet.
On the 4622 the needle was on the up swing at about what you said when the hook got there.
I pulled the nose off of it and twisted my self this way and that using a flashlight and never could see timing marks on that needle bar. But there is so much sheet metal and junk under the nose of that machine I could have missed it.
All I know is all of these machines but the T&S have been used and sew nicely.
I haven't gotten to the T&S yet. It's next in queue.
Joe
I have seen a couple of the "newer" machines without timing lines too, or they're extremely well hidden. Maybe they figured that no one would bother re-timing them if something went wrong.
Originally Posted by Mizkaki
Industry standards are to lower the needle to DBC (dead bottom center, aka it's lowest point). The raise the needle .092". The point of the hook should now be in the middle of the scarf, the cut out on the side of the needle opposite the long groove. On household needles that is the side with the flat. If it isn't then the hook needs to be rotated until it is. To rotate the hook, one usually needs to loosen set screws on the hook shaft, and then rotate the hook by hand.
Some machines need to have the hook tip very slightly before the scarf and some more into the scarf.
On Singer machines with the timing marks the .092" is when the bottom timing mark is just at the lower end of the needlebar bushing. Knowing that helps to set a needlebar that has been previously moved.
Cathy
Some machines need to have the hook tip very slightly before the scarf and some more into the scarf.
On Singer machines with the timing marks the .092" is when the bottom timing mark is just at the lower end of the needlebar bushing. Knowing that helps to set a needlebar that has been previously moved.
Cathy
Do you have any theories on why all of these slants (I should be more specific, it's 401As, 403As, 503Js, and 411Ds, and 431Gs) that I've had have all had what looks like very advanced timing, but seem to sew normally (the machine referred to in the original post not withstanding, of course.) It's always puzzled me.
05-10-2013, 01:40 PM
#36
Super Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 8,091
Cathy,
Here is a question I've thought about but not found the answer too.
You have a machine to work on, it's an early one with no reference or timing marks. Say an early Singer 66.
You want to check to make sure the needle is at the correct height, but with no reference or timing marks, what method do you use to do this?
And is there a method that would work say on all mechanical machines including the 15 clones?
Joe
Here is a question I've thought about but not found the answer too.
You have a machine to work on, it's an early one with no reference or timing marks. Say an early Singer 66.
You want to check to make sure the needle is at the correct height, but with no reference or timing marks, what method do you use to do this?
And is there a method that would work say on all mechanical machines including the 15 clones?
Joe
05-10-2013, 02:40 PM
#39
Super Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Northern CA near Sacramento
Posts: 1,107
Joe,
First thing, I need to correct my statement of .092. It's actually .093. I have to watch myself I do that mistyping all too often.
Almost all household machines are timed the same way. Time the hook first, then the needle bar height, then the feeddogs.
Start with a new needle. Turn the hand wheel in the correct direction to get the needlebar to DBC. Then raise it .093"/ 3/32"/ 2.5mm(ish). Now check the hook tip, is it just coming in behind the needle? Doesn't matter at this point whether it is too high or too low. However if it is too far right or left then you need to time the hook.
Next set the needlebar height. Turn the hand wheel so that the point of the hook is behind the needle and set the needlebar height so that the top of the needle's eye is just below the tip of the hook.
If the feed dog timing is off set it now. Put the stitch length to it's longest setting. The needle should enter the fabric just as the teeth drop below the needleplate. Usually this timing is changed on the main shaft where the feeddog fork rides on the eccentric cam.
Tighten everything up and test by turning by hand.
Cathy
First thing, I need to correct my statement of .092. It's actually .093. I have to watch myself I do that mistyping all too often.
Almost all household machines are timed the same way. Time the hook first, then the needle bar height, then the feeddogs.
Start with a new needle. Turn the hand wheel in the correct direction to get the needlebar to DBC. Then raise it .093"/ 3/32"/ 2.5mm(ish). Now check the hook tip, is it just coming in behind the needle? Doesn't matter at this point whether it is too high or too low. However if it is too far right or left then you need to time the hook.
Next set the needlebar height. Turn the hand wheel so that the point of the hook is behind the needle and set the needlebar height so that the top of the needle's eye is just below the tip of the hook.
If the feed dog timing is off set it now. Put the stitch length to it's longest setting. The needle should enter the fabric just as the teeth drop below the needleplate. Usually this timing is changed on the main shaft where the feeddog fork rides on the eccentric cam.
Tighten everything up and test by turning by hand.
Cathy
Originally Posted by J Miller
Cathy,
Here is a question I've thought about but not found the answer too.
You have a machine to work on, it's an early one with no reference or timing marks. Say an early Singer 66.
You want to check to make sure the needle is at the correct height, but with no reference or timing marks, what method do you use to do this?
And is there a method that would work say on all mechanical machines including the 15 clones?
Joe
Here is a question I've thought about but not found the answer too.
You have a machine to work on, it's an early one with no reference or timing marks. Say an early Singer 66.
You want to check to make sure the needle is at the correct height, but with no reference or timing marks, what method do you use to do this?
And is there a method that would work say on all mechanical machines including the 15 clones?
Joe
05-10-2013, 02:54 PM
#40
Super Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Northern CA near Sacramento
Posts: 1,107
Tammi,
That is a good question.
For an exact answer I will have to think about it.
Quick answer: The instructions that I just gave Joe are for the tipical straight stitch machine. Zigzags have a timing error built in that shows up with every swing of the needle. This means that one needs to 'fudge' the .093" slightly (advance or retard the tip) to accommodate this error. In other words, the .093" is a starting point.
I have never had any timing problems with the 401 series of machines. Possibly we are seeing that the timing on your machines has been changes over the years by a local 'repairman' that didn't fully understand timing.
Cathy
That is a good question.
For an exact answer I will have to think about it.
Quick answer: The instructions that I just gave Joe are for the tipical straight stitch machine. Zigzags have a timing error built in that shows up with every swing of the needle. This means that one needs to 'fudge' the .093" slightly (advance or retard the tip) to accommodate this error. In other words, the .093" is a starting point.
I have never had any timing problems with the 401 series of machines. Possibly we are seeing that the timing on your machines has been changes over the years by a local 'repairman' that didn't fully understand timing.
Cathy
Originally Posted by ArchaicArcane
Thanks for clarifying Joe.
I have seen a couple of the "newer" machines without timing lines too, or they're extremely well hidden. Maybe they figured that no one would bother re-timing them if something went wrong.
Thanks Cathy, perhaps that's why when I googled the first time I set the timing on a machine, I saw 5/64s,.. 0.92 is between 5/64 and 3/32. (Closer to 3/32 though, which is what it says in the Slant Adjuster's manual now that I check again.)
Do you have any theories on why all of these slants (I should be more specific, it's 401As, 403As, 503Js, and 411Ds, and 431Gs) that I've had have all had what looks like very advanced timing, but seem to sew normally (the machine referred to in the original post not withstanding, of course.) It's always puzzled me.
I have seen a couple of the "newer" machines without timing lines too, or they're extremely well hidden. Maybe they figured that no one would bother re-timing them if something went wrong.
Thanks Cathy, perhaps that's why when I googled the first time I set the timing on a machine, I saw 5/64s,.. 0.92 is between 5/64 and 3/32. (Closer to 3/32 though, which is what it says in the Slant Adjuster's manual now that I check again.)
Do you have any theories on why all of these slants (I should be more specific, it's 401As, 403As, 503Js, and 411Ds, and 431Gs) that I've had have all had what looks like very advanced timing, but seem to sew normally (the machine referred to in the original post not withstanding, of course.) It's always puzzled me.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
