1921 Singer 66 Bobbin roller issue
 

I hope someone can help with a bobbin issue I'm having with my 1921 Singer Model 66 (red dot) treadle sewing machine. It was my grandmother's (purchased new in 1923). The bobbin roller will not touch the spoked hand wheel. I can see that someone wrapped layers of tape long ago on the hand wheel where the roller is supposed to touch. The tape is well worn away and I want to restore to original function. Bobbins are the normal "modern" style (not the shuttle)

Singer serial# G9031407. Bobbin housing #32673. Original simco blue roller, 1.17" in diameter and in good shape. All mechanical function of the bobbin winder is correctly adjusted and operational (and at it's maximum adjustment distance). Hand wheel inside diameter (where the roller should touch) is 2.93 inches. But for the roller to touch the wheel, it would have to take up a gap of 0.2 inches (the hand wheel would need to have a diameter of 3.3 inches".
I'm a very mechanical person and I just cannot see what's the issue. I searched the internet for days looking at pictures and my machine looks like all the others, except this winder is hopelessly off from working. In fact if I take out the adjuster screw and move the roller assembly down as far as it will go, the left side of the mechanism hits the sewing maching body just as the roller makes contact with the hand wheel.

Does the winder on your machine have a black rubber tire? I am used to model 66 with motor and lights, and the bobbin winder clicks down to the left of the chromed edge on the hand wheel. You might need to oil and clean quite a bit if joints and hinges are stuck, it should click in place and release with ease. Some treadles have the bobbin winder running on the treadle belt, if so you have bobbin winder with out a bobbin tire.

In theory you might have the wrong winder, but if your machine has had one owner, I guess it has original parts. Model 66 was made for 50 or 60 years, and went through many minor changes over the decades. Theres probably more than two types of winders for model 66. You might get more accurate help if you post a picture.

Does your bobbin winder look like this?

Here it is...took me awhile to figure out how to post a photo.
https://www.quiltingboard.com/member...280-621466.jpg

I don't have a 66 at the moment, the closest I have is a 99K, and a belt driven 201K with a spoked wheel. The bobbin winder is in theory the same, but not spot on your treadle.

If the bobbin wheel presses down on the belt (or the groove in the hand wheel where the belt goes) it's not suppose to have a rubber tyre. If it presses on the metal part next to the belt, it is suppose to have a rubber tire. A black tire looks good on your machine, I think the gray/blue, beige even green came later to suite different finishes.

I'm unfortunately not much help with the treadle details. It looks like there is only one adjustment screw on my machines. With a bit of further investigation and research you will get to the problem. From the picture it looks like the winder can be adjusted a bit lower, but I may be thinking wrong from just looking at the picture.

Welcome. It warms my heart for people to sew with machines they have inherited. The

It is a good thing it is different than the one Mickey linked to. I'm pretty sure no one could wind a bobbin with that one. The 'official' name for that decal set is "Scroll (red)" . While many call it a 'Red Eye,' from my understanding, the Singer employees would refer it to "Red Head" decal set.

Thank you for the picture. I'm going to post pictures differently. You will need to either click on the thumbnail & when done looking will have to use the "back arrow" to come back to the post. Or you can right click each thumbnail and open them in a new tab. Or you can click the linkes below and they will open in a new tab. (At least that is how it works on my computer.)

Last spring I acquired a 66-1 that only had a partial bobbin winder. Interestingly enough, two weeks before, I had gotten a 66 that I actually bought for the case it was in. It had a good bobbin winder, so I switched them. I'm thinking that perhaps if you loosen the screw that I have circled in yellow and adjust the piece (the whole winder) under the screw so that the opening is toward the hand wheel you might have better luck?
https://www.quiltingboard.com/attach...1&d=1580693966


and when the bobbin winder is in position for winding the bobbin the wheel will ride on the hub of the hand wheel, not in the n groove for the belt as shown be the right yellow arrow. The left arrow is the position it would be in for winding the bobbin if there was one there.

https://www.quiltingboard.com/attach...1&d=1580693977

I saw something the other day about putting what I call broccoli rubber bands over the bobbin winder tire.

Janey - Neat people never make the exciting discoveries I do.

Thanks for the information Janey!

To clear up misconceptions from my earlier post and photo, I include better photos of the bobbin winder and roller below:

As you can see in the left photo, the mechanism is adjusted as far as it can go. All photos are of the winder pushed down (engaged) and should be ready to wind onto a bobbin (not present) and still there is a gap of 0.2 inches from the hand wheel to the roller (right photo)! As far as my research goes, the roller diameter is correct (1 1/8 inches) and the hand wheel is correct. This really baffles me and I'm starting to wonder if this was an early model 66 that used the bobbin winder you mentioned (that rolls on the leather belt) and my grandmother got rid of that at some point, installed this one, and realized it didn't work and wrapped the hand wheel with tape to take up the gap. However I notice in many photos that Model 66 uses this style of Bobbin winder and it seems to work for everyone!!!
https://www.quiltingboard.com/member...280-621470.jpg

You are welcome for info. When I took the pictures to post in this thread. I tried to adjust the screw, as I circled in my photo, to a position shown in your photo. I adjusted it without it engaged and tried to engage it -- it did not engage. Are you engaging it to wind bobbin position before attaching it to the belt guard? My suggestion would be to un-engage the winder, then unscrew the circled screw and push the mechanism to a different position. Tighten the screw and try to engage again.

ETA: I looked closer at your new photo and mine. It looks like on yours the black painted comes straight down from the metal piece that needs to be adjusted, whereas, mine is at a slight angle. The adjusting screw is below the circled screw. If you need more info, let me know and will try to explain better or illustrate better.

Janey - Neat people never make the exciting discoveries I do.

I had another look at mine, and realized that what I thought was another adjusting screw - is not. It is the pivot for the winder. So my suggestion still is to disengage the bobbin winder from the engaged position and loosen the circled screw, press the metal piece that it is holding toward the hub of the hand wheel so that the space is not visible.

Janey - Neat people never make the exciting discoveries I do.

Janey, thanks for the photo of the winding mechanism! I was able to use it to carefully compare to the winder on my Singer. The pivot point and adjusting screw are further back on yours than on mine, and as a result the roller on yours is further back than mine. After more research online my suspicion is that the winder on mine is from a 1950's era Model 66 and not the original 1921 Model 66 version. I suspect the later versions moved the winder further forward to accommodate solid handwheels designed for electric motors. As luck would have it, there was a 1921 bobbin winder on ebay yesterday which i purchased to confirm my hypothesis! It looked to be in rough shape but I'm hoping it's just dirt and surface rust and will work after cleaning it up!

The bobbin winder I showed was from 1917 with Scroll(red) decals and was put on the 66 that I believe was from 1908. Have you disengaged the winder from bobbin winding position and then unscrew the adjusting screw and push the winder so there is no space on the right of the screw (yellow circled) and then tighten the screw? I also have other 66s from 1929 and 1949 that have different (from the ones on this thread) bobbin winders with the electric solid hand wheels.

Janey - Neat people never make the exciting discoveries I do.

Janey, thanks for your continued help! I tried your suggestion and even went further by removing the adjusting screw completely and tried to get the roller to engage the handwheel with the bobbin both engaged and disengaged. It's simply not possible. The mechanism actually hits the sewing machine body before the roller hits the wheel even pushed past the point the adjusting screw will allow. I can't find a history of bobbin winding mechanisms but it's my hunch it changed over the years and my machine has the wrong one.

https://www.quiltingboard.com/member...280-621472.jpg

So you disengaged the winder from bobbin winding position and then unscrew the adjusting screw and push the winder so there is no space on the right of the screw (yellow circled) and then tighten the screw? If the winder isn't engaged the tire will not touch the hand wheel.

Then did you press the black part to engage the winding? After tightening screw as shown in my image?
Attachment 622356
The arrow points to where it should pivot. and the circle shows where to press to engage winder.

Janey - Neat people never make the exciting discoveries I do.

Maybe this is simplistic, but wouldn't putting a bobbin on the winder take up some of that extra space?
bkay

Hi Janey, yes I tried all those things. Tried even with a bobbin installed. The roller will not engage the hand wheel because it's too far away by almost a quarter inch. There isn't anything wrong with the mechanism, it just doesn't have enough adjustment to get the roller closer. Were there handwheels with larger diameters? Mine looks original though.

ahh just thought of a maybe for you . Singer handwheels were not always the same. the hubs on some were wider that others as they stood upright. Would that make a difference for you??

https://www.quiltingboard.com/member...38-579297.html

A wider hub would definitely help out. My current hub is about 3 inches in diameter. If the hub were at least about 3.5 inches in diameter then the roller would touch.

Okay, after much looking and lots & lots of researching, I think I may have figured out that it is not the bobbin winder -- it is the belt guard. I looked at several parts lists that I have and found that the only difference was the belt guard. I went to look at the 66-1 with the spoke hand wheel and a later 1929 with an solid hand wheel with electric motor. Unfortunately, I misplaced the belt guard for the Scroll(red) 66. So I measured from the bend up over both belt guards and there is a one quarter inch difference. The electric belt guard is larger than the one for the spoked hand wheel. I then looked closer at the pictures you posted and it appears to me that your belt guard was not the original one for that machine.

I found a couple of pictures that match one in my parts list. There actually looks to be a good blog about reassembling a 66 bobbin winder that has a picture of the correct belt guard a little over half way down the page. http://errantpear.blogspot.com/2012/...in-winder.html There is also an ebay listing for a 66-1 red eye and if you look closely at the belt guard I think you will find it is different from yours. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Sin...-/273938858540

Also looking at the image that you combined three images, it looks like your belt guard is higher than mine. I do have a partial picture of the belt guard that I took the good winder off.
Attachment 622386

So, maybe tape or smaller diameter wide rubber bands may be the way to go. I had a problem with one of my bobbin winders and even with a large bobbin winder tire, it was still a little off. I don't know where it came from, but I found a tubular o-ring, that I slit so that it would fit over the tire. It was just enough to get the winder to work.

Janey - Neat people never make the exciting discoveries I do.
Not affiliated with off-site link(s)

Janey you’ve found the evidence! I searched the Internet for a week and never came across the information you were able to find!

After studying those photos it is clear that the belt guard on my machine is not correct for my machine, but the hand wheel is correct. A quarter inch difference explains the gap I’m dealing with. Now to replace the belt guard with the correct one.

Thanks so much for helping me resolve this mystery!!!

Glad you and Janey got this figured out. But FWIW I wasn't talking about the diameter of the hub but the distance L to R as it sits on the main shaft.

Janey is amazing, isn't she? I once said (and still maintain) she has a special mojo with Mr. Google.
bkay

:o Ah, shucks. :o Thank you.

John says I'm elevenacious, because I'm beyond tenacious.

Janey - Neat people never make the exciting discoveries I do.

I know this thread is over a year old, but so glad I stumbled upon it! I have a recently acquired Singer 66, from 1916, with a non-functioning bobbin winder. The whole mechanism seems a bit loosey goosey as it is attached. I was hoping that I could get by with replacing the bobbin tire and cleaning what I could reach with it attached. Alas, that is not the case. There are 2 hook arms behind and down the main mechanism (I am not home to be able to snap a picture and I don't know what they are called, but the 2 arms come together). I'm thinking there is something wrong with a spring around those 2 parts (I believe there is a spring there). Also, the bobbin mechanism, when pushed down to engage, just pops back up. Which makes me thing spring somewhere. I might be way off, as I am typically not the least bit mechanical!

I had stumbled upon Errant Pear's blog yesterday, and was very amused at her disclaimer (and more than nervous at the thought of disassembling my bobbin winder lest I mess it up and it doesn't work when I reassemble. You know, I end up with extra parts at the end). Now I guess I don't have to worry about messing it up as it doesn't work as it anyway! https://cdn.quiltingboard.com/images...es/biggrin.png I've watched a couple of YouTube videos as well. Not being mechanical I can get lost in the process. I will be taking A LOT of pictures, from every angle. Maybe I will drag my husband in to see it before I begin. He is mechanical (but no interest in sewing machines). He'd rather be golfing. https://cdn.quiltingboard.com/images...s/rolleyes.png

I found Errant Pear's link for the bobbin winder at http://errantpear.blogspot.com/2012/...in-winder.html I thought I remembered that there were at least two springs. I remember it being kind of fiddly to get the springs on correctly. I just quickly glanced at a couple of videos about taking it apart - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vExPGb34JFM and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmIJuOjz3wU Personally I like Errant Pear's a little better as it has good pictures of just the parts and how they go together.

Dawn I'm wondering if one of the springs broke or maybe it was just put together wrong.

Janey - Neat people never make the exciting discoveries I do.
Not affiliated with off-site link(s)

I also was wondering if the assembly was put back on wrong. Okay, hoping!! If not that, I am also thinking either the spring is missing or broken. I do like that Errant Pear has so many pictures as well.

I also discovered that I am missing the thread guide that goes above the needle clamp. I think I just located that part at SingerOnline.com

So the bobbin assembly was not put together right. One of those 2 arms in the back needed to be placed above a little ledge (not sure how to describe it), and one of the arms (finger? ) goes below. The arm on the bottom is what rests against the bobbin while it's winding. The arm on top is what pops on and off when moving the bobbin assembly up and down (engaging or disengaging it). When reassembling this particular part, I moved the finger of the spring to the 3rd hole on the right before screwing the dual arms back on. I'm not adept at adding photos online, I know that would be better. It was fiddly to get the screw in because you had to hold 2 different parts of the assembly in place while screwing it back together.

I am able to wind a bobbin using the handwheel. I was not able to wind using the treadle, still trying to understand how to stop/start and avoid getting stuck in dead spots. The fact that I can wind the bobbin by hand though tells me it should work with the treadle once I figure it out. The moving parts are a little stiff. I cleaned what I could. I'll keep adding oil and moving parts back and forth to hopefully loosen it up a little more. Several screws were riveted in, so I couldn't get it all apart to clean better. This is progress though!!

https://cdn.quiltingboard.com/images...es/thumbup.png Good for you. Yes, it is fiddly to get it back together properly. I think it took me a couple (or more) tries to hold everything in the right position and the spring made it difficult to line everything up.

Good idea to keep oiling and keep trying. I don't remember the dead spots, but I think I always used the hand wheel to start so that I knew it was going in the right direction and not make bobbin nests of thread.

Janey - Neat people never make the exciting discoveries I do.

Well, I was too quick on the bobbin winder. Now turning the wheel by hand is NOT turning the bobbin to wind. I think I need to pull it back apart and spend more time cleaning. I did not undo the screw on the bigger circular disk on the left edge, I think this is the gear that turns and moves the arm that the thread sits in right before it goes on the bobbin. I think more cleaning is in order, and hopefully it will be fine.

Do you know if when turning the hand wheel, the pedal should also move? I keep reading about turning the hand wheel and then feeling with the feet where one is at in the process. Turning my hand wheel slowly does not translate into anything on the pedal. If the pedal is in the right place (not in a dead spot), I can sometimes turn the hand wheel to get started with the pedal (I think I have to get my feet going at the same time I am turning the hand wheel - a definite pattern to the dance!) If the pedal is in a dead spot, the only way I can get the pedal going is to give a tug to the big fly wheel that the belt is around. Trying to pull, spin, or turn the hand wheel at that point does nothing other than move the needle up and down and feed the fabric, the belt does not turn. Is this normal? Once I get going, the belt moves fine. And if I am in just the right place with the pedal, I can turn the hand wheel and start moving my feet at the same time and it works. I can actually get started again with the pedal if it is in the right spot.

I'm kind of thinking this is user error on this point, since sometimes it works well, while I struggle at other times. But I never read about anyone having to reach down to the fly wheel to get off a dead spot. Which makes me wonder what I am missing.

Also, absolutely no luck with loosening the knob on the hand wheel so as to wind the bobbin, and then being able to use the pedal. Doesn't matter if I try to turn the hand wheel, try to start by moving the fly wheel to see where I am at - nothing at that point will engage the belt.

Yes, when the hand wheel is turned, the pedal should move. Did you stretch the belt before installing?
I kind of wondered about the stop motion clutch knob had something to do with bobbin winding. Are you opposed to using kerosene? It sounds like the stop motion clutch knob needs to be removed, cleaned and oiled. Here is a link that may help - https://theelusivebobbin.blogspot.co...tion-pt-3.html along with https://oldsingersewingmachineblog.c...nger-part-two/ I would probably remove the belt guard to clean and oil the parts inside.

Check your PM.

Janey - Neat people never make the exciting discoveries I do.

I stated that incorrectly (about loosening the knob to wind a bobbin). I can loosen the knob on the hand wheel so as to wind a bobbin, but I cannot get a bobbin wound using the pedal once I have this done. There is nothing I have been able to do to get the belt moving so as to use the pedal once I get to that point. I have had the hand wheel off, and did clean those parts. I am going to disassemble again though, so I can further work on the bobbin assembly. I will look at the posts you sent. I am also having trouble getting that screw back out of the knob to get the hand wheel off. I have had that screw undone multiple times. This is the 2nd time I cannot get it unscrewed again. My husband got it off for me the the last time. Sigh. I'm watching yet another video on how to remove a stubborn screw though, so hopefully this technique works. Though this video has to do with something called binding screws on a potted motor.

I am not opposed to using kerosene if that is what is needed for whatever I am doing. Also, I did not stretch the belt before using. Is the belt slipping? What would that feel or look like? Or is it too tight? I can certainly pull it out and stretch it if need be. I did oil again in the hole on top of the machine near the hand wheel, and any moving parts I could see (as well as under the machine) then turned the hand wheel by hand to distribute the oil. Which was helpful in that it feels a little looser in moving. I also oiled the joints in the treadle base again. I think my issue has something to do with the belt, I just didn't know if it was "slipping" or it was too tight.

My easy to get-to treadle has a larger belt, but does work. I know the instructions for installing treadle belts say not too tight and not loose enough to slip. The instructions at https://www.treadleon.net/sewingmach...eadlebelt.html tell about stretching the belt before installing at the bottom of the page. There are other pdf instructions which can be gotten at https://web.archive.org/web/20171030...ter-P60013.htm You will have to left click on the link It will not work if you right click to " Save link as " The instructions to stretch the belt are #3 of those instructions.

It really should be fairly easy to unscrew the little screw in the knob, as well as the knob should be easy to screw opposite the hand wheel. I wonder if the screw is or was cross threaded.

Janey - Neat people never make the exciting discoveries I do.
Not affiliated with off-site link(s)

I did shorten the belt slightly (about 1/4"). I didn't stretch. I will read from your links. Perhaps my stretching already happened with the initial install. It did seem like it felt better, the operation of the pedal. But that was at the end of my night, so I didn't have extended time testing this out.

I figured out my issue with the screw. I need to loosen the knob, I think it is, as though to wind a bobbin. Then it unscrews easily.

I did take the bobbin assembly off and disassembled the gear disk that rotates against the worm on the bobbin winder to turn the bobbin. I had a dilly of a time getting it adjusted and the nut tightened on. I would get it adjusted to where it needed to be on the front, then try to hold the screw in place while tightening the nut on the back (on the eccentric screw). Somehow I would end up over tightening, or somehow just nudging that screw slightly, and it would be too tight or too lose (the disk against the worm). I think I finally got it adjusted right. I can again at least wind a bobbin by manually turning the hand wheel. It still wasn't working by treadle, but the belt seemed to be turning for the most part. I was tired, so walked away - but I believe I just need to adjust the screw that is just forward of where you attach the winding assembly to the machine - I think the bobbin tire is to tight against the machine when engaged. Hopefully that is what it is. I feel like I am so close!!

Good tip about releasing the knob before unscrewing the little screw -I didn't remember that.
It sure sounds like you are getting close.

Janey - Neat people never make the exciting discoveries I do.

Well, I removed the hand wheel and cleaned (back of the hand wheel and around the shaft). There was actually quite a bit of dried oil and dirt on the back of the hand wheel. I also had to again re-adjust the disk/cam on the bobbin assembly as the nut had come loose. Put it all back together. I was tickled pink that the bobbin winder worked! It even popped up at the end of filling the bobbin. https://cdn.quiltingboard.com/images...es/biggrin.png It is pedaling smoother also. I now need to spend time un-threaded, so that I better understand syncing the pedal movement with the rotation so that I don't go backwards (which happens easier now that everything is clean).

https://cdn.quiltingboard.com/images...es/thumbup.pnghttps://cdn.quiltingboard.com/images...es/thumbup.png Isn't it nice to have a smooth running machine and have all that dried old gunk out of there.

Did you have to adjust the bobbin winder any?

Janey - Neat people never make the exciting discoveries I do.

I just love this machine, yes - so nice when it is clean and running smoothly! Yes, I did have to adjust the bobbin winder. On my machine, it needs to be at the top of the slot (the screw that is just above where the bobbin assembly attaches to the hand wheel). There were several adjustments along the way to getting to that point. One of the springs needed to be in a different hole on one piece, I think it is called the bobbin follower, it is the part that pops on and off the front of the machine when you engage and disengage the bobbin. I definitely had to adjust the disk/cam that is on the eccentric screw. I think I about squealed with joy when it worked!! https://cdn.quiltingboard.com/images...es/biggrin.png