Newcomer, have a German 1955 Phoenix 429 Machine
 

Hi All,

I have just joined, and I posted this in the "Introduce Yourself" area; someone suggested I post it here. Thanks in advance!

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Thanks for all the wonderful information that is already on your group.

I just acquired a very solid old German sewing machine, a Phoenix 429. The handwriting on the paperwork says it was purchased in January 1955.

It has the manual but... it is in German.

I would really like to see an English manual, particularly the portions pertaining to tension, threading, and bobbins. Or just learn from any of you who have this machine, regarding its unusual-to-me threading and bobbin.

I hope someone here has the same machine :-)

Thank you so much in advance,

-Cecilia.

Welcome to the board and the vintage blog. I don't have a machine like yours and don't read or speak German but I'm sure someone will have some information that you can use. Did you look on the ismacs.com site to see if there is a manual somewhat like your machine?

Hi Cecilia

Welcome to my world!! I have a Phoenix 250. No manual to be found anywhere in English - but it looks like I might finally be getting one from Germany. It will be in German but I will ask a friend to translate.

Not sure about a 429 but unless there's someone here who has one, I would definitely recommend finding someone to translate it for you as I think it would be quicker than finding an English manual. Otherwise you can try using a manual from a different model and see if there's enough crossover to get it working well.. Try this link :)

Once I've got my manual and spent a bit more time with my machine, I'll be very happy to share any information I learn. Best of luck to you too!

Cheers,
Amelia

Thanks all so far for the responses!

The manual is a compact booklet, 63 pages long, lots of text. Mostly I can intuit what I need to about the machine, but the bobbin is weird; the bobbin case is not the funky one as on the 282; rather, the 429 bobbin case looks more typical, but with a funny hook on it. (But no vault-like housing as on the more modern Phoenix machines. This machine, by the way, does only straight and zig zag.)

The link in Amelia's post to the 282 manual is largely helpful, for the machines are similar; however the bobbin and such still has me stumped.

The threading is also bizarre, with a funky tension spring on the upper tension dial that I can not intuit how to thread properly. I think the upper threading is similar to the other Phoenix machines; is anyone willing to send a close up photo of how to thread around the funky tension spring at the upper tension dial?

The machine is in great order, but I threaded it to the best of my intuition, and based on the diagrams in the German namual, but no doubt missing some all-important details in the text, and I caused a thread jam in the bobbin assembly (race?) which will require full disassembly. So I know I am doing something wrong.

Needle direction? Threading direction? Bobbin thread direction? Who knows...

-C.

p.s. My machine looks very similar to this one: http://rudolfcouture.com/wardrobe/in...d=47&Itemid=39

how do i post photo of my phoenix 429?
 

By the way, how do I post a photo here to show you the machine? Do I click 'attachment' or 'insert image'?

-C.

insert image. Welcome to the board! I like German machines.

There are on-line translators that you can use to translate some (or all) of the manual yourself. I have translated text for work this way, and in general have gotten good results. With 63 pages, you might want to be selective, but you can translate the section or chapter headings first, then go straight to the sections you want to see first.

Darren

Try going to a school and see if someone wants to translate.
I had a Phoenix machine until a month or so ago... A little gal came looking to buy a machine and the more I talked to her the more I knew she needed the Phoenix. I had so NOT intended to sell that machine. I just loved it. Anyway she bought it. When I sold it to her I figured out the free motion - WOW WOW WOW that one was wonderful - it had something in the back you let down and a neat little foot. I'm wondering if you can shoot a pic of the bobbin case? I'm betting the thread winds through that thing you said sticks up. Once you figure out that machine you will love it.

I am so excited to have found this group of Old Machine Enthusiasts!!!! I am very new to sewing, and I love old solid things. I could not stomach the idea of going to Sears and buying a plastic machine that sounds like a stitching staple gun. So I am now suddenly the proud owner of:

1) Single-stitch White brand machine, blue in colour, just gorgeous to see, hear, and feel.
2) Centennial Featherweight, barely been used, the lady had the needle in backwards and just thought it did not work well; I bought it for a song and had no idea that the blue-rimmed badge meant Centennial, meant Collector's Item!
3) Bernina Lemon #1: Record 530, the nicest bedside lamp I have ever had. Motor turns out to be burnt out and not replaceable. :-(
4) Bernina Lemon #2: 730, turns out to have a cracked gear. Someday I will tinker and replace. Otherwise --pristine--.
5) Green Elna Supermatic. Needs new friction wheel, but otherwise I think maybe it was used six times. So pretty.
6) Elna SU 62, in great shape but needs ongoing de-gunking and de-nicotine-ing from the heavy smoker who owned it previously.
7) Phoenix 429. Nicknamed: The Beast, for it looks a bit scary and if I were a child, I'd probably have nightmares about it!

Am insane? ;-) I guess we may all have a collector's streak in us. Okay, next I will try to send some photos of The Beast! :-)

-C.

Okay, firstly, I could not resist showing you my Bernina Bedside Lamp in action.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]416045[/ATTACH]

Now, here is The Beast:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]416046[/ATTACH]

I took The Beast out of its case because it takes up less space this way, and also changing the bobbin required flipping the machine up on its hinges; you can see from the next photo that the bobbin is a Royal Pain to reach.

BTW, I gave everything a nice clean, wipe, and oil, being careful to avoid the fabric-and-metal belt. While I think I will replace a wire in the motor (it looks worn), otherwise things are in amazing shape! It stitches very nicely! Only a straight, reverse, and zig-zag.

So, this next photo shows accessing-the-bobbin.[ATTACH=CONFIG]416047[/ATTACH]


The bobbin case itself is not terribly weird, I suppose; but it does have a funny hook on it, which I have figured out (Miriam ,you are right!) how to thread.

Do you want me to send a close up of the bobbin? I am afraid of monopolizing the site.... One more photo only, here, I will show you the unusual (at least, it is unlike any other machine I have seen!) threading around the upper tension. Firstly, as you can see on the large photo of the whole Beast, the thread first passes through a neat steel plate with three thread-pass-holes. Then it passes through this bizarre spring near the tension dial. Does this seem right to you? It was quite finicky, getting it threaded. It stitches well, so I must have done something right - but please, if anyone sees an error in my threading, please do let me know! I will be most appreciative of any pointers at all.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]416048[/ATTACH]

So, now that you have seen The Beast...

It stitches really beautifully! Sounds very gentle for such a hulky thing.

The mechanics, switches, etc are so heavy-duty-industrial-machinery-like. Nothing sleek, smooth, or dainty about it! Yet it sounds ssooooo quiet and behaves so tamely. The stitch width lever, the feed-dog-drop, the needle-position lever... it is all -so- hulky.

A question; I cannot for the life of me figure how I can disengage the bobbin winder from the large wheel during sewing. It must be possible - it seems so bizarre to me that it would be engineered with this one inefficiency. Has anyone had a machine where the bobbin winder was always in contact with the wheel? What could I be doing wrong?

-C.

should be lever that makes it flip down. it shouldn't be in contact all the time. only when winding a bobbin.
can you post a close up of that area from a couple of different angles. You are not monopolizing the posts --this is how you get help if you need it. from others looking and ooohhing and ahh over the machines. I really wish I could find 1 like this one. she/he is a beaut not a beast. Amy

So, now that you have seen The Beast...

It stitches really beautifully! Sounds very gentle for such a hulky thing.

The mechanics, switches, etc are so heavy-duty-industrial-machinery-like. Nothing sleek, smooth, or dainty about it! Yet it sounds ssooooo quiet and behaves so tamely. The stitch width lever, the feed-dog-drop, the needle-position lever... it is all -so- hulky.

A question; I cannot for the life of me figure how I can disengage the bobbin winder from the large wheel during sewing. It must be possible - it seems so bizarre to me that it would be engineered with this one inefficiency. Has anyone had a machine where the bobbin winder was always in contact with the wheel? What could I be doing wrong?

-C.

Sorry I somehow posted that twice! I will try to post photos of the bobbin winding area. It is puzzling. The Beast (The Beauty) is really making my day - I have been tinkering all morning, and it is such fun!

So, here is a full view of the bobbin-winding area and the handwheel. Turn your head sideways to the left.[ATTACH=CONFIG]416064[/ATTACH]

The curvy metal paddle and the squarish lever operate in tandem, to press down on or release pressure from the bobbin, whilst winding. Pressing the[ATTACH=CONFIG]416066[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]416066[/ATTACH] squarish lever causes the curving metal paddle to snap down onto the bobbin, keeping it in place and causing an even winding of the thread. Then, when finished winding, one touches a finger to the underside of the metal paddle and it releases up. As it does this, the square metal lever also returns to its original position. None of these motions affect the position one way or another of the bobbin winder itself, which has all the time been in contact with the handwheel. Here are two closer photos, which show the bobbin winder paddle in up and down position:[ATTACH=CONFIG]416065[/ATTACH]

I am not a bit of help only to tell you your Beast is really a "Beauty".

And finally, this last photo shows that the rubber bobbin wheel -can- be lifted away from the handwheel, by lifting "up" on the bobbin-winding "axel". So it is physically possible to cease contact - but there is not any apparent mechanism by which to keep it latched "up". Any ideas? By the way, sorry that in the previous post, one photo appeared twice.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]416068[/ATTACH]

Many thanks in advance! I am hoping that the other Phoenix machines out these are similar enough that someone can help me.

Would the part that holds the bobbin in place go UNDER THE BOBBIN? Would a little push take all of it off the wheel?

Thanks Barny, but unfortunately not. The curvy metal part and the squarish button move in tandem, and the squarish metal button has firmly bolted hardware the dictates its parameters of movement. It is very hard to explain and I am sorry I can't seem to find the right words. As I 'lift' the bobbin rubber wheel away from the handwheel, I could either stick a wooden wedge between some of the hardware, or use a very strong small clamp to keep it up and away - but it just seems really odd to me that there is no built-in way to snap it to 'engaged' or 'disengeaged'.

#6 the Elna, have you tried contact cleaner? I've used it on my kenmore and that stuff is like magic on metal. I squirt the can in a continuous mode and quite literally all the gunk melts off. I like having a towel in place to catch run off.

When I got my first Kenmore she had sticky yellowed gunky oil inside on the main cam and there was bits of black goop in it. I sprayed the cleaner on it, lo and behold, the metal was shiny silver within moments. I tested it on a tiny corner to make sure it wouldn't kill the paint. And i avoided plastic because i was a bit worried but for the most part, magic in a can. if you're working with metal parts. They're like 4 bucks a can at walmart and auto parts store. :D

Also welcome! LOL i started with one Kenmore and now have a total of 3 Kenmores and one Singer <-- my newest one, which is in the process of de-gunking and fixing up. :D I'm about finished with my first quilt using my Kenmore 50 :D *dances* i'm excited.

I don't think the thread is supposed to go through the little circle at the end of your tension wire. That is just a way of ending the wire so it doesn't stick you with a sharp end. Try just dropping the thread directly between the disks.

Thanks, redmadder. I thought so, too - so I tried it as you suggested, and unfortunately when I did not thread it through the tiny loop, the whole spring just flopped down and to the left and did not provide tension.

This threading seems really unusual -- and quite a pain! Has anyone seen threading such as this on other machines?

While on the topic of tension, I am also wondering whether the tension knob looks as though it is missing a cover screw, to sort of hold things in place a bit more firmly? I am wondering because when I simply turn the numbered knob, the whole tension assembly wants to turn. When I stabilize things with my fingers and then turn the numbered dial, then indeed only the numbered dial turns. Seems to me that I should be able to simply turn the dial itself and not have to stabilize other bits so as not to have them travel as well. Any ideas, anyone?

Thanks!

Also, I wanted to say - I was sewing today, testing out stitches on leather. Wow, it stitches nicely! I did notice I had to reduce the tension -hugely- in order to sew zig zag on leather and not have the top thread pucker up. Does this sound typical? I have no experience sewing leather. Not much experience sewing anything at all, to be honest - I am still a novice!

Thanks in advance for any comments. :-)

Why would you sew zig zag on leather. I think if I were going to sew leather I would do it on something less rare like a 15 clone.
I don't know about the tension unless I had the machine on my bench. Does the manual have any info on the workings of the tension? Some times they have a drawing of the tension. Then you would have to look and compare. I would probably take the tension apart and put it back together but I do them all the time. If you aren't used to doing it you might want to get it serviced.

I was just doing the zig zag on leather to test out the stitching and see how it would look cosmetically. How come you would suggest doing it on something less rare - is there something about zig zagging (or sewing in general) on leather that might wear the machine?

I think I might disassemble the tension at some point; that is a good idea. There are no drawings in the manual, but I might keep looking... Otherwise, I figure if I take it apart carefully, one piece at a time, what could go wrong? ;-) Famous last words!

Thanks a lot for your input :-)

Hi Cecilia
Now that I've looked at your pics I'm pretty sure the bobbin winder and tension assembly is the same as my Phoenix 250, so I will take pics and look into your questions and post back tomorrow when there's time and daylight. We'll get to the bottom of this! Mine has been driving me mad.... but I am 90% sure I'm getting a manual from Germany so I'll be sharing it with the world when I finally get this machine going!!
(PS - mine's called "River" - hehe)

Thanks, frudemoo! By the way, the bobbin-winder thing, I "solved" by replacing the rubber "doughnut" in the bobbin winder with a rubber doughnut of slightly smaller thickness. This way, it still engages with the large wheel for bobbin-winding, but it does not contact whilst sewing. I still think perhaps the mechanism is spring-loaded backwards from how it should be, but oh well! ;-) For now, it works. How do you deal with yours? Does yours stay in contact with the large handwheel whilst sewing?

But, if your manual has detailed drawings which help, then yes, do share! I have a German-language user manual which I am happy to share if you need anything - but the problem is, these things are not addressed in my manual. I was fortunate to have a German-fluent houseguest last week. We had a good giggle over Spulenkapsul and ZickZack! I have, owing to this, re-named The Beast; his new name is Ziggy! ;-)

By the way: This machine takes round-shank needles. A first for me! It came with some needles, and I noticed that a few of them are quite short; what would be the reason for this? I thought needle length was very no-tolerance? In fact on the Singer site, they say never to use non-Singer needles with a Singer machine, for the non Singer ones are just a smidgen longer and will over time destroy the bobbin business... any insights on this?

My manual also gives a chart as to the range of needles and thread appropriate to this machine; the range is very wide! So, from sewing the finest silks right up to sewing whole entire chesterfields! The manual for a later, more domestic-looking model, has a smaller range of threads sizes and needle sizes. Interesting.

BTW, the machine came with its original bill of sale tucked in the case. Neat, eh?

If the tension is not put together correctly and then you take it apart and put it together just like it was, it isn't going to fix anything.

tension assembly stuff
 

D'oh! Right you are. I shall set to finding a diagram, then. Funny, I was just thinking that taking it apart and cleaning it may help, but of course you are utterly right.

BTW, when it comes to other machines, such as old fashioned Singers and Singer knock-offs, can anyone recommend a good all-purpose diagram of tension assembly? I have an oddball machine, a White 722, which looks anywhere from the 20s to the 50s; you know, that standard old pre-zigzag Singer-like casting that never really changed. Its tension seems to work fine, but it did once accidentally pop off, and I never was certain whether I had replace all the bits in the proper order. If anyone has a good all-purpose manual diagram to recommend, I'd much appreciate it!

-C.

The best all purpose manual is: http://www.tfsr.org/publications/tec...achine_manual/
This really only deals with the old machines but some times you can wing it just fine if you have an exploded diagram. Some times it is just the principles that you need.

WOW! Miriam, thank you -so- much! At a glance, that site looks just fantastic. I will be reading it thoroughly, and I am sure I will learn a great deal. Thank you thank you thank you :-)

-C.

blow up the pages you need 200% or so - that way you can see at a glance.

Hey Cecilia - this is all really interesting. I've taken some pics of mine to share with you. Here:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]417623[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]417625[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]417624[/ATTACH]
You can see there's not much of a gap when the winder is disengaged, but there is definitely a gap between the rubber tyre and the handwheel.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]417626[/ATTACH]

This is my tension assembly, but I never thought of threading it through the little loop. Seems like it work either way... but I was thinking if you get stuck, I can loosen mine off and take a pic of how it goes together if you like. I presume mine is okay even though the machine isn't stitching. I think it's to do with having the wrong needle. I have the system 1738 round shank needles, but you said yours are short? How long are they? (in mm)

Cheers, Amelia

Tension Assembly components
 

Okay, so that was really easy! LOL. This shows the parts as they go together on my machine.
The front numbered dial unscrews to reveal the tension spring which slots into the front screw. The discs are at the back. Let me know if you need any clearer pics or have any questions.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]417628[/ATTACH]

CORRECT TENSION ASSEMBLY - previous post incorrect!!
 

I just realised mine was wrong!! But the good news is that I figured it out. Here we go:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]417636[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]417637[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]417638[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]417639[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]417640[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]417635[/ATTACH]
The most important parts are in the first image where the tension spring gets hooked under the slot on the left hand side, (2nd image shows the spring inside the machine); and that the larger spring on the front sits inside this little cog contraption with the black plastic housing sitting over the base of the spring - the tension dial then gets screwed on over that.

Previously, I had the black plastic housing sitting behind the spring and the spring was inside the tension dial instead - it was doing absolutely nothing. So I think I've probably helped both of us with this exercise!! LOL.