Recently exploring machines...
 

My wife and I have always collected special antiques, nothing too valuable or perfectly maintained but our criteria is simple: it has to be in good shape and it has to be functional to us or at least be very aesthetically pleasing to us. We're not collectors for the sake of collecting. And we also like to USE our antiques if they're machines. So we actually listen to our 78s on our phonograph, and we use our antique teapots and serving dishes. Because they make life wonderful. :)

We recently came across an old Singer treadle table without machine and thought, what a lovely place to put our contemporary sewing machine which we use often enough to keep it out and on a table. But of course, that led down the rabbit hole of seeing actual machines available near us and a new fascination/obsession began. Now, after seeing what's around us in Quebec City (including a very few of the Singer models that were produced HERE which we didn't know about) we're thinking of spending more and -- why not -- getting a table with a machine and having it to use, clean up over time, and fold away when using our modern Singer. Many of the ones we're finding are in good enough shape, the owners say they still work, in many cases they have just recently bought a new belt.

Why am I writing... we're confused about a bunch of random things that are impeding our decision making on which to buy of the several we have the choice of. So, completely random questions, in no particular order...

1. What are the machines that have holes in the wood for the belt to go in and out of rather than going into the metal base on the right side? Are those a type of machine, or just a specific era of treadle table.
2. I came across a woman trying to sell her late grandmother's table. The grandmother clearly took very good care of her machine because it looks great. It's one of the ones made here going by the serial number I asked for. It has a motor attached. Now, after this long, there are probably all sorts of problems trying to run old motors safely, but what we don't get is, would this machine have COME with the motor? Or would it have been added later, in which case, will the machine work just with the treadle if we don't use the motor at all?
3. Understanding the options aren't exactly unlimited for what you find in the right condition and price point, where can I read about which of the 66, 127, 27, 15, etc -- which are the ones that come up most often -- were the better machines or had particular problems, or always jam up when you do this or that,.. the reason is we're not likely going to buy another one of these in the future and we don't want aficionados to tell us later, "oh, you really shouldn't have bought the Sphinx model 127 from 1929 because those have a part that breaks easily and never is up for sale anywhere for less than $300. You should have gotten the red eye from 1931 instead..." or something like that. Basically what is the modern tech blog "5 best Singers from the early 20th century" version of these machines? Or do they all basically work fine without specific hitches?
4. What can I ask these people who tend to just be selling off family heirlooms and don't know much other than knowing that they work fine, other than serial number to know if a machine runs well? Or something you would know to ask someone that is crucial to know before dropping money on one?
5. Assuming we'll have to go pick it up from wherever we buy it, is there a tried and true way to disassemble a treadle table and separate it from the machine to fit in a car? I assume they weren't purchased 100 years ago in one piece and probably required assembly, which means they can be disassembled, right?

Thank you all for any help!

almost time for breakfast, so let me give you quick answers to 5 and 4.

Generally there are 2 set screws that are in the rear of the base that grip the shaft of lolllip hinges
a little hard to get to and you will want a falshlingt and a longish secrewdriver, but I've often got them with a Swiss army knife in a pinch.

4. What ever you guy makesure it has bobbins , ( shuttle if neeeded for virbating shuttle machines) and bobbin cases. and a bobbin slide unles you want to parts chase.
Many owners have no idea what should be under the needle ares. Ahh I hear butter slicing.


.

I just noticed this was your first post. Welcome aboard..

A few other things for you to consider. What will your sewist want in a machine? Striaght stitichers abound. Chain stitchers less so. Do you want one iwth back tacking or reverse? Is zig zag important to you? Button holes? many of these can be done with attacments. Bu it is something to consider.

If you want the option for treadle, motor and handcrank you will quickly find that Singer has a huge market share. However, early Singers may not have this boss and screw hole under the hand wheel.
https://www.quiltingboard.com/member...38-582790.html


Without it you are pretty much stuck with treadle only.

Thank you, kindly :)
We have our modern Singer Simple for our daily sewing needs. Just thought it would be fine from time to time to do projects with the older machine. Straight and zigzag stitches of varying stitch lengths is at MOST what we would want to do. But where machines equipped to be retrofitted are concerned, something we're struggling to find is what the year is before which Singer models can NOT be fitted for a motor?

Also, the woman I mentioned with the Quebec produced Singer... here are some photos. We know where and when it is from but we have no idea what model this is to look up parts and manuals etc before we consider buying it...Serial number JA607191: https://postimg.cc/jwCw9f2c
The full machine and table: https://postimg.cc/ZvSm3kGN
Rear view with the motor: https://postimg.cc/qNRT2x51
Rear below: https://postimg.cc/PpGnssr7
Thank you for any help. How does it look to you?

Welcome. It looks like you have done quite a bit of research. It appears as that machine is a 115 with "Wings" decals. http://needlebar.org/nbwiki/index.ph...329_Gold_Wings or http://ismacs.net/singer_sewing_mach...ic-decals.html According to the comprehensive model list at http://ismacs.net/singer_sewing_mach...s-100-199.html the 115 class machines were made between 1912-35 and was a Domestic machine with a Vertical rotary hook; straight stitch; and could have been a treadle or motorized. According to the serial number it would have been made between 1924 and 1936. It takes an "L" bobbin which are still available. From my understanding there is a bobbin case available, but unsure how well it works.

It is a straight stitch only machine without a reverse. A manual can be found at https://www.sil.si.edu/DigitalCollec...ges/image1.htm or http://ismacs.net/singer_sewing_mach...ine-manual.pdf Neither of them show the motor. I have seen a motor attached similar to the one you are looking at, but can't find it now.

We like pictures. In order to post pictures on Quilting Board, you will probably need to reduce or compress the picture to a file size that is smaller than 2MB. How to post images can be found at https://www.quiltingboard.com/attach...020-01-17-.pdf
Don't forget to scroll over to the far right to find and click on the "Upload" button.

I have found that only the big red "Reply" button or "Quote" work to give me the paper clip icon to work for adding pictures.
https://www.quiltingboard.com/attach...p-location.jpg

Some additional info regarding reducing images at post #4 and images for the scroll and upload button can be found at #5 of https://www.quiltingboard.com/main-f...d-t312607.html

Janey - Neat people never make the exciting discoveries I do.
Not affiliated with off-site link(s)

Welcome to the QB from SE Michigan. You have a couple of very knowledgeable people who have answered your questions. I could never add to what they have told you. I have a number of antique and vintage machines here so I follow this forum closely. Again Welcome and I am glad you just jumped in. Enjoy.

I am by no means an expert, having been working on machines for only a few years, and only an occasional sewer. That being said, you would have a lot of versatility in terms of attachments and power options with machines with the motor boss/rail on the side under the hand wheel. When was this boss/rail added? I don't know but based on machines i"ve had I would say late 191Xs early 20s. As I understand it the boss/rail was added for a hand crank and then used later for motor bracket attachments.

The most common Singers I've seen are 66s and 15s. 66s have a drop in bobbin, from the top, and are rock solid, but the feed dogs don't drop. 15s have the bobbin that loads from underneath, which I don't like as much, but newer 15s have the ability to drop the feed dogs. I use a 15 has a hand crank for the small repairs I do. 15s are rock solid also. Both use any/most straight/low shank attachments, and Singer even made one for doing zig zag. You can find 66s and 15s in perfect shape or in junky shape. All this being said, I kind of wish I had one of my 201s back, it's the drop in bobbin and you can drop the feed dogs, I'm just not a big fan of the potted motors.

I would be concerned with buying that 115 because of parts availability.

I have 2 115s, 1913 and 1915, both with Tiffany/Gingerbread decals. They are as rock solid and dependable as 66s and 15s, and are incredibly smooth with the full rotary hook. The bobbins are still manufactured today, as are cases. I bought bobbins from Cutex, and they work very well.

The 115 does not have reverse, however there are a few different ways to lock your stitches without having reverse. Shorten your stitch length at the end, or turn your work 180 degrees and stitch back, or lift the presser foot, pull back the fabric, and restitch.

I use one as a hand crank, the other is a treadle. I am new to treadling, and have to report that I have jammed my 115 by inconsistency in my treadling technique. Always the Singer handwheel must turn towards you! Some minor dismantling of the bobbin guts, removing the caught thread, and reassembling was involved. Has my technique improved? No. It is very way to treadle fast, but not as easy to go slow and remember to continue using the full range of the pedal, which is where my mistake occurs.

With 115 parts not being an issues, and if the price is right, I would get it. It's a neat looking machine, and it appears you can make it a treadle powered machine if you'd like.

Thank you all so much for the comments and amazing info. I've learned even more than I did just trying to do research on my own.
Sadly, that first 115 was sold while I was at work yesterday but something else has come up...

One which even in my amateur opinion looks to be in amazing shape. A 27 from March 1927 according to ISMACS and the serial (G304778). The person selling it says she only ever had it for decoration but always tried to keep it clean and seems to think it runs. She says the wood is all fine and that one drawer has a bunch of little accessories. No telling if one of the accessories is the other slide plate that is missing in the photos.

Overall photo: https://postimg.cc/jLBgFgnL
Machine closeup: https://postimg.cc/62Qf3n4k
Treadle: https://postimg.cc/rDC1NQ16
Back: https://postimg.cc/mPRMkC0m

The problem with this is that it's 2 hours away, we'd have to rent a car to go get it. And I'm not sure how to disassemble them. But am I right in thinking it would be worth the effort?
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The other going by ISMACS and Singer's list is a 15 from 1913 (G2856200), but going by Sandman-Collectibles is a 66. So, no clue, I'd need help with that. What I don't understand is if the wood looks like it does because someone took a shot at varnishing it at some point or if that's original. There appear to be excess varnish marks in parts..., but going by Sandman-Collectibles is a 66. So, no clue. I'd need help with that. What I don't understand is if the wood looks like it does because someone took a shot at varnishing it at some point or if that's original. There appear to be excess varnish marks in parts...

Overall photo: https://postimg.cc/8706H970
Possible excess varnish?: https://postimg.cc/mhs8C1fF
Base of machine: https://postimg.cc/Lqv6DZQ6
Treadle: https://postimg.cc/SJm1F2gp
Drawer apparently full of original accessories: https://postimg.cc/6y5sVmJR

This one is far easier to get to, still requires renting a car, looks in great shape on the wood side but is clearly more worn on the machine side. Decals almost worn out, lots of pitting. This church thrift shop received it and wants to sell it so there's not much info on its past.

The first machine is cheaper, neither person really knows much about them. Thoughts, questions I can ask, opinions on what they are and what kind of condition they're in, are either of them worth buying? (We're leaning heavily towards the Sphinx because of its condition despite being hard to get to.)

Thank you for ANY help!! I promise I'll stop asking after this.

Understood, but is there any problem with just leaving them on other sites to link to? It seems to me that serves the purpose just fine. But if it's a forum rule, that's fine, I'll edit my post.

The 27, Sphynx decals, is a long bobbin machine, and takes modern class 15 needles. Just like the 115, if you treadle the handwheel the wrong way, you will get thread jams.

The 66, round class 66 drop in bobbin, class 15 needle.

Manuals are available for both, free, online, at ismacs.com. The manual has a clear diagram of oiling and lubrication points (lube=suitable grease), as well as how to thread, etc.
Other than a missing slide plate, not much can go wrong with the old machines, and repros are available. Leather belts are available . You can also use screen spline, O2 tubing, aquarium tubing. You'll need 72", and a clip/staple yo join the ends. Expect to cut a wee bit off, then test. You'll want the tension on the belt as loose as possible to make treadling easy,. But not so loose the belt slips.

​​​​​​Both machines remove/install the same way. "Throw off" the belt (odd doo hickey at the right near the drive wheel), tip back the head. Locate the hinge pins. Now, on the casting, there is a set, or grub screw, that secures the head to the pin. Loosen the screws, slide off the head.

Dismantling the legs is something I've not done before. If you rent a car, get an SUV, and bring along moving blankets to cushion it. Wrap a towel around the head and secure in seat belt it in the back seat. You do NOT want a 30# projectile flying towards your head because you had to slam on the brakes.

​​​​​​As far as "too much varnish" I'd guess not. Perhaps freshly polished, or fed. Howard's Feed n Wax is a great product. Usually, issues to the wood are due to moisture, being used as a plant stand, or stored in an unheated building.

Pick one of the machines based on the prettiest drive, or great place to stop for lunch. Either machine is a winner. Do let us know!

I agree with WIChix. I did notice that the 66 was a back clamp and I couldn't tell for sure about the attachments in the drawer. Usually, one only uses the regular presser foot, but sometimes a special attachment comes in handy.

I'm glad you checked with Sandman's as it is indeed a 66 as that was the only machine with those decals.

I see you happened across one of the mistakes in the Singer serial number database. "G" numbers are tricky, partially when someone leaves out a number when looking it up or not looking far enough as the "G" numbers start over with a "0" in front of them.

Janey - Neat people never make the exciting discoveries I do.

Ok, but the other one is 27 and not a 127?
I think all things being relatively equal, that we're gonna go with the 27. It's just so much nicer all around and I think we'll kick ourselves later if we don't. What a great first vintage Singer to have. We love the sphinx decal. I have to imagine from everything I've read that there is no potentially missing piece, slide plate included, that we can't pick up somewhere online like ebay or something. It concerns me a bit that the photos show nothing under the missing slide plate. Hopefully it's not an issue. So for the sake of giving a lovely machine a home that will care for it and learn to care for it like our other antiques, we'll get that one. And we'll eventually learn to get it to working condition.
Anyone have any clue how I can find out the actual dimensions of the table, without machine, or closed up as though the machine was put away? We want to get a sense of what kind of interior we should rent in a car. We'd like to avoid a SUV moneywise if we can.
Thanks!!

Modern bobbins are available as are the slide plates. Replacement slide plates have a different finish, but could possibly get both front and back so they match ??

You wouldn't believe what I have gotten in a 1986 VW Golf hatchback, which I unfortunately don't have any more. You definitely want to take the sewing machine out of the cabinet like WIChix said. I used to carry straps and bungee cords to strap things together. If you run a strap around the top so the lid doesn't flop, you can probably turn the base upside down in the back seat and maybe use the safety belts. That is what I did with my sister's machine, but it was in a SUV and traveling about 1600 miles.

If someone hasn't gotten the measurements, I'll go measure mine. Actually, the measurements may be found in some ebay or facebook ads and also some are given at https://www.cottagecraftworks.com/am...achine-cabinet which should be close.

Oh, I forgot. I'm wondering about the 27 being a 127 as the bobbin winder is up by the handwheel rather than down the pillar so it can be used with the treadle belt. The singer.com manual for the 27-28 shows the high bobbin winder.

Janey - Neat people never make the exciting discoveries I do.
Not affiliated with off-site link(s)

Good catch, Janey! I do believe it is a 127.

This is a Singer boss with the hole labeled for a motor or a handcrank to fit. There were two options for machines without bosses but they are both rare. ( and only for motors)

ooops

https://www.quiltingboard.com/member...738-582790.jpg

Right, but the 127 isn't gonna have that, right? Only the other one.

As I mentioned before about "G" serial numbers there are some errors and also it is easy not to get the serial number correct. According to ISMACS. It looks like the end of 1912 and beginning 1913 there were 27s mixed in with the 127s.

If that number (G304778) is correct it looks like it may be 27
G- 279001 329000 27 50000 March 16 1910
whereas if there is a digit missing it would be it could be a 127
G- 3043801 3068800 127 25000 June 26 1913
and if it has a 0 in the front of the 3 and digits different or transposed it would be a 127
G- 351301 386300 127 35000 September 25 1923

It does look like it does have a motor boss. From some of my research, it appears that American made machines put motor bosses on all machines right around 1910 (give or take a bit). There are some earlier 27s that do not have a boss, but the 127s would have.

Just an FYI the dates are the days that the Serial Numbers were allocated, not the day they were actually manufactured.

Janey - Neat people never make the exciting discoveries I do.

The shuttle mechanism isn't visible under the slide plate of the 127, which may be due to the shuttle mechanism in the "rear" part of the shuttle path. Ask the seller to rotate the hand wheel, and share a photo of the mechanism once it arrives in the front slide plate area.

The woman selling the 27 was super kind enough to make me two videos of the treadle and the shuttle moving under the needle. So kind of her considering she knows nothing about these and only did it because she knows the trip is a bit long for us. The treadle squeeks a bit but I imagine that's normal since it hasn't been properly oiled in some time? I'd love to share the videos here to see if it sparks anything to anyone we should be wary of. Can I get some help with that?

I don't think you can attach a video to a post, here. Were you able to see the shuttle? Here is a video about threading the shuttle and machine at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HbICbcF1tk It seems like a lot of the videos are noisier in general than what they seem in real life. Quite probably it is in need of oil, cleaning (although it looks in really nice shape), and maybe a little adjusting.

{Edit} - FYI - the 127 came after the 27 and I'm pretty sure all the 27s had a spoon shaped metal piece under the tension assembly to release the tension to pull the thread through easily, whereas the 127 had an automatic tension release when you raise the presser foot it has a pin that releases the tension. Sometimes these need to be disassembled and cleaned to have them work properly.

Another {Edit} is the slide plate in one of the drawers and are there any other goodies in the drawers? That really is a nice looking machine. I don't remember the belt guide on my 27 treadle. Oil is probably needed on the treadle, too. You just don't want to get any on the belt.

Janey - Neat people never make the exciting discoveries I do.
Not affiliated with off-site link(s)

Ok turning treadle wheel. Unfortunately she only caught the end.
And shuttle movement.

I'm not positive, but I think the squeak is just a https://cdn.quiltingboard.com/images/smilies/wave.gif for oil.

The shuttle sure looks nicer than most of mine.

Janey - Neat people never make the exciting discoveries I do.

Machine adopted and brought home!
Pictures soon if anyone's interested.

In the meantime, is there a specific procedure for cleaning that everyone knows about? The original paint job is mostly there but there are worn places where the metal is exposed and others places where a bit of rust has set in. The machine itself is pretty spotless except for shiny metal parts being a little rough.
Can anyone recommend good general practices for cleaning?

There is a sticky thread https://www.quiltingboard.com/vintag...v-t167789.html

Basically, just wipe with soft cotton cloth and sewing machine oil. The metal pieces can be removed and polished with metal polish. If the worn places are smooth, can just oil. Some have used other things to clean or polish with mixed results. Some products (even just water) will silver the gold decals so be careful if you should use anything other the sewing machine oil.

As for the treadle base, I have only used sewing machine oil on those. However, if you want to touch-up the parts that are down to bare metal, I used a Testors paint with a fine brush on my sister's machine head. My brother repainted the treadle irons. Another paint that could be used is Duplicolor #DE1635 Spray paint. as indicated at https://www.quiltingboard.com/vintag...t-t268128.html and if just touching up small areas, you can spray into the lid or something and apply with a brush.

Janey - Neat people never make the exciting discoveries I do.

And post pictures! Before, during, after or any combination thereof.

Hello everyone, just wanted to come back in here to say we've been at the treadle base for the past few weeks when we've had time. First doing a little de-rusting and then doing a full oil coat.
For the wooden cabinet, we got some Murphy's Oil Soap. What's the best method for cleaning, rags, super-fine steel wool?

PS, I checked again and I had made a relatively simple mistake. The number is actually G3047778. I was missing a number.

For the wooden cabinet, I would suggest https://www.quiltingboard.com/tutori...s-t109859.html You can see what I did and the results at https://www.quiltingboard.com/7481152-post97.html and https://www.quiltingboard.com/7482744-post101.html (if you click Probably new Work Stand template needed and info Please in the upper right of the individual posts I linked to you will see the whole thread.)

It looks like the serial number for the 127 was allocated June 26, 1913.

Janey - Neat people never make the exciting discoveries I do.

Ok, thanks for the links. So is Murphy's not recommended at all among members here or is it just not something people use? There seems to be a number of people online who talk about it being a good product for Sewing Machine cabinets.

I have read of some that use Murphy's. I have had such good results with Glenn's method that I haven't. I would say it would depend on the condition of the wood to begin with. Knowing my luck I would try it on something that it would make it worse than what I started with. My thinking is that it would get in between the finish and the wood and swell and make bad spots.

Janey - Neat people never make the exciting discoveries I do.

We have finally got this machine and base all cleaned up and in as good of shape as possible for our amateur research and abilities. But it's doing far far better than when we found it. If I can go back through my messages and remember how to post pictures, I will.
New issue though, we finished cleaning it and noticed that now that the Balance Wheel won't turn without being very rough. We have literally not done anything to it that could have caused that. Any thoughts?

I didn't re read all the posts, but has the balance wheel ever spun nicely for you? I consider a VS machine to be well oiled if it will spin 3 revolutions from a quick spin of the wheels/ Turn it upside down and oil all places where metal ouches metal, oil the por holes, take tehe faceplate off dig out fuzz and oil moving bits.