Singer 500 keeps unthreading itself
 

I have meched a Singer 500 and have every reason to believe it is operating properly, cleaned, oiled and greased properly, etc. In the past, it has occasionally unthreaded itself, but I normally put 4 or 5 stitches into a thread starter (small scrap) and have no issues. Last time it did that, I changed the needle (from a vintage Singer 14 to a new vintage Singer 14 needle) and had no further issues. The needle that is in there now is a fresh needle with no signs of bending or burrs. I wanted to use up my Singer needles, but I wonder if I should go to Schmetz? And if so, which needle? Top stitch 16, maybe? What about a titanium needle?

I am using Connecting Threads 50/3 cotton thread. It isn't the best thread in the world but it seems adequate. I've used it on everything I've done on the 500 and had no issues.

I tried to do something different this time rather than just piece or quilt. I joined two half pieces of quilts (easier to quilt just half at a time) over a seam which had one side selvage and one side tucked-under fabric. The seam was pinned down with small drops of washable Elmer's school glue in the areas between pins. I had let the glue dry about 20 hours. I did not press it. The seam was thicker than the rest of the quilt, but I do know that the Singer 500 has the punching power to get through that. However, this is my first attempt at using Elmer's glue. How much is that contributing to the problem, I wonder?

The machine did great for the first half of the seam. I supported the quilt and, even though I was working only with the cabinet and no additional table for support, I had good stitching (hemming stitch). I've quilted a lot of quilts and know how to support them with my chest, shoulder, etc. At about the half way point, the thread started snapping. I was not using a thread starter in the middle of the seam, but did have long thread tails. Even when I put the first few stitches in by turning the hand wheel, every time I used the motor, the thread snapped. Immediately. It unthreaded from the needle, and the last two guides. That happened 10 or 12 times before I walked away in disgust.

It seems to me there is less room between the needle and the foot on the 500 than on most machines, and I couldn't get a threader in there. It threads front to back. Anyone else notice this or have trouble with it?

There was one other variable: I saw a tip on here about using kitchen sponges to quilt. You put the sponge side up with your hands over it and the scratchy side down on the quilt. That seems to work well, but I'm wondering if somehow I affected the rate at which the feed dogs were taking fabric.

What would you think caused the problem, and what would you do about it?

Thanks,
Cricket

Cricket - just to be clear - you're not FMQing? The sponges I thought had been recommended for that, but I suppose there's no reason not to use them for help with other quilting too :) As long as you're not pushing or pulling the fabric at a different rate than the machine wants, I can't see how it should be a problem.

What is your tension set at? How many layers are you going through when the thread snaps? I could see the glue causing a little breakage. When white glue dries in drops, the edges where we pierce it could be a little jagged... That might be why we hit it with an iron.

Vintage Singer needles are likely not a problem provided they don't have a burr in the eye or something but I do like topstitch needles because I find them more forgiving with that larger eye. Titanium is better wearing, I don't think it would make a lot of a difference in this case as far as thread breakage.

Is the thread shredding before it breaks, or snapping?

I'm sorry, I think I've just asked more questions than you did, but hopefully it will help us get to the bottom of it?

Thanks, ArchaicArcane. Those are good questions. The answers are:

I am not fmq. I am straight-line quilting and, in the case of this seam, with a hemming stitch. I am not using a walking foot because I've never needed one on this machine.

I don't think I was pushing or pulling fabric but maybe I was. I can try that again with gloves and see how it works.

The tension is set at 1.5, where it has been set all along and has had no problems.

I'm going through five layers of cotton (foundation piecing) and one layer of batting when the thread snaps. This machine should be able to handle this. My Singer 401 can, and they are very much alike.

It's my first time using the glue. Yes, the edges could be ragged. I skipped (pressing) that step because the iron was downstairs and my knees objected. I was careful not to use too much glue. I did smooth most of it out with a toothpick.

The thread is shredding, but not a lot. Like I said, this is not the world's best thread but it has done an acceptable job until now. I do not think it is Egyptian long staple cotton thread but I'm not sure. It is Connecting Threads thread and it's my first order of it. I've been though several spools of it without problems. I bought it because I'm working on quilts for homeless families, and for the price, it's wonderful.

Thanks for your help!

Likely, you should lower your tension if you're going through 5 layers of batting and fabric.

I'd pull a few yards off the spool and try it again. I've run into what appear to be "bad spots" in some thread. Even had a few spools that got cut at on point in the top, so every time I'd get around to that particular place in the wrap, it's separate.

Thanks, Candace. I will try that.

Good idea, Macybaby. A lot of people like Connecting Thread threads but I'm iffy on it. I'll try your suggestion. Thank you.

Cricket

I've made progress with this problem, but it is not solved. The first time I went back to sew with it, it made a loud noise and the spool almost jumped off the spool pin. I removed the quilt from the machine and opened the bobbin area. I found a mess, including that the bobbin assembly had jumped out of it's position. There were random thread pieces and a small bit of lint. I had cleaned it thoroughly when I put that bobbin in. I took the needle out and found it bent from that incident. I changed it for a Singer 16 needle. I had already decreased the pressure to 3 before I started the seam.

BTW, I am using the same thread in the bobbin as on top. I have followed the manual for threading instructions.

Things were fine until I tried to sew fast. Then every time, the thread frayed and snapped. I have noticed that this machine will do exactly that when I sew fast no matter what thread or needle I use. I am beginning to think that the problem is the sewing speed, or when the motor first starts. Does anyone know why this is happening?

Thanks,
Cricket

Cricket,

I have an idea. The bobbin case cushion spring may be set with too wide a gap. This will allow the bobbin case to move around more than it should and will mess up the thread path and tensions. I have had to adjust this on both our 500s.

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Check this picture out. There are four places that have adjustments and if they are out too much the bobbin case will jump it's track and your thread tension will not be right.

The specs are:
A: .012" to .016"
B: .012" to .016"
C: .015" to .023"
D: .025" to .045"

Check these measurements with a narrow gap gauge. C is a diagonal measurement between the little finger and the bobbin hook.

If they are out of spec, PM me your email and I'll send you images of the service manual where it has instructions on how to adjust things.
It's probably copy writed and if so the moderators will delete it if I post it here.

Joe

Thank you, Joe. I wondered if that could be a problem. And I don't have the specs, so thanks again. Let me scare up something to use to measure it and I'll get back to you.

Cricket

You can get narrow gap gauge sets are most any auto parts stores.

Joe

pretty sure the copy rite has expired by now.

1.5 is your usual setting? That's terribly low...

I agree, that should be a snap,..

It would be worth trying the same sort of thing on a test sandwich that doesn't have glue in it...

Shredding indicates abrasion - needle, glue, burr somewhere... it's possible the burr is somewhere the thread doesn't normally feel it, but with the added bulk and possbility of even a little deflection of the needle it could be just enough.

If the spool jumping wasn't from the bobbin case teleporting, it got a giant fast yank of the thread. It would be worth investigating the whole thread path for burrs and other snag spots.

It might be a good idea now anyway with the bent needle and displaced bobbin case. There may be a new burr. :(

Is there any chance at all that when you speed up, you tend to push the fabric rather than just guide it? I used to do that a lot. When the motor first starts, there's a little bit of lash to take up at the handwheel because of that motor gear, but I don't -think- it would cause a problem here....

When the machine runs faster though, like anything - the more motion, the bigger a deal everything is. Something just a little out may be a big deal at higher speed.

Update: I got the measuring equipment and, following Joe's instructions, the gap at the top (D) was too big. I adjusted it. I tested it. The first five tests of very fast sewing were great and on the 6th test, the thread again frayed and came unthreaded. I decided to test it on an actual quilt. The stitch was just great for the first part of the seam and then frayed again and unthreaded. I rethreaded, checked the bobbin, and tried again. This time, even on a slow speed, not only did it fray and unthread, but it unseated the bobbin again AND CURVED -- not even bent -- the needle, a Singer 16. Grrrrrr! I cleaned out and oiled the bobbin area, rethreaded, reseated bobbin, etc. This time I gave it a Schmetz 90 needle. I was aggravated by then and went off to treat my sunburn. I'll try again tomorrow.

I think I will check along the whole path for any burrs, try a different thread (previously done), and see about the difference a needle makes. I may have to play with the gaps again (thanks, Joe!). I'll just do one thing at a time.

I'm hesitant to say timing; I think it is more likely to be a bobbin area issue. Do you agree?

Why won't that darn machine work right???

Cricket

Cricket, look for something ON the bobbincase that's grabbing thread.
Here's my theory: Twice the bobbin case has been yanked out of its position. I don't think this is really supposed to be possible in regular use. Not with that retention system. The only way I could see it dislodging would be with a giant yank to the back and upward. Pretty much what the take-up lever would be doing to the thread that's probably yanking the case out of place. The other place I would check is on the thread path to the right side of the take up lever. If it were caught there, and the TUL wanted thread delivered from the right side, it may yank the case out of place while trying to grab thread from the other side. Does it pucker the seam at the same time?

You could also try the throat plate and bobbin case from your 401. Heck, even the tensioner. That could eliminate 3 places for burrs.

Cricket,

You need to check and adjust all 4 specs they work together. And as Tammi said said, check for burrs or other things.

When I set the gaps on these machines I try to set them in the middle of the allowances. So far that's worked good for me.

If you needle is being bent, there has to be a physical cause for that. Either the hook is out of time or the fabric is being pulled and is deflecting the needle.

Joe

Hi Tammi. Your theory sounds good to me, so I went over every bit of the entire thread path. I found one slightly rough area after the tension, but not on the exact tread path.

The seam does not pucker.

I would have tried switching parts with the 401, but at this moment, it doesn't seem necessary. I've sewed three long, very fast seams with no problems so far, but have not yet tried it on a quilt. The difference is that I followed Joe's instructions and measured and adjusted the part that holds the bobbin in, and I used a Schmetz 90 needle. Oh, I also flossed the tension thoroughly. I did catch some shredding there. I haven't done anything about that (crocus cloth) yet because of the three good seams. My philosophy is that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Thanks, Joe. I did check and adjust all 4 specs together. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Good idea on setting gaps in the middle. I'll remember that and do it next time.

Maybe I am pulling the fabric. It is hard to handle a quilt in the space of just the cabinet. I don't have any other tables upstairs to support quilts nor room for them. I do have them downstairs but I also have knee issues and stairs are not doable right now. I'm guessing it isn't out of timing because the stitch remains perfect. Would you agree? Also, I see no needle marks or indications of timing problems. Unless you know something I don't? If so, do tell, please.

I will try to quilt my quilt and I'll let you know how it goes.

Cricket

Change/reverse your needle.
This should correct your problem of machine coming unthreaded

yes. that's what i am thinking too. in most cases, skipping thread/unthreading issues are due to needle. get a new needle.

Cricket,

Here is a trick I tried with Rusty, my rusted 99K. His thread path was rough with rust and that was causing trouble.
So I got some really thick thread, probably carpet thread, coated it with jewelers rouge and then ran it through each guide as if it were the machine doing it. I used a back and forth stroke with the string until it broke from the friction. Then I cleaned out the thread bits and rouge and noted a huge improvement. It's just and idea to try for the burrs if you still have some.

Joe

Maurie and Singer guy, thank you. I did change the needle 4 times. I was using Singer needles and the last change was to a Schmetz 90. So far, so good, but I have yet to give it a thorough test (jury duty). I did check the place where the needle goes with a mirror, as I often do since I use so many machines and it's too much to remember, and so am pretty sure the needle is in correctly.

Joe, that's a great idea. I never heard of that before but it is worth a try.

I may be able to do further testing tonight and I'll let you all know. Thanks for the help!

Cricket

Roll your finger around the edge of the actual bobbin. I have one that has a "knick" on it and catches the thread and breaks it. Had to learn to fill the bobbin so that side is down when I put it in the machine.

that happened to me just now. i'm done working rehabbing my singer 28 hand crank and tried sewing but for some reason the top thread is not catching up the bobbin thread. i check the tension assembly and sewed so many times and my top thread breaks all the time. check the VS bobbin tension and cleaned it. tried it again and thread breaks. finally i checked the needle orientation - and it's on the wrong side. now it's working but i still need to work on the tension as the stitches not good.

ArizonaKAT, umm, why not just replace the damaged bobbin? I don't think I could tolerate such a bobbin.

Joe

Hey Cricket! How's Jury Duty going? Have you had a chance to sew with the machine?

The reason I asked about the seam puckering when the thread breaks is I thought that maybe if one or the other puckered, it might let us know if it was being hung up. Oh well.

So you haven't disassembled this machine's tensioner? Only flossed it? You may find you like the end result better if you disassemble and clean. I do every one of them now as the first order of business.

I don't suspect timing, no. There's a series of articles on my blog about timing. It covers most things - not raising the needlebar but otherwise pretty much all you'd ever need to know.

I'm with you Joe, that bobbin would have hit the bin so fast...