Singer Motor Lube - A discussion
01-18-2016, 10:06 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by johnm
WOW, now that is using brushes beyond the limit. We should invent a "squeeker" as in disk brakes, to let us know when the brushes are running short, ha, ha. We must not have that much sewing time in Wisconsin, wood to split, lye soap to make, chickens to feed and cows to milk. We might wear out a splitting maul before the motor brushes, ha, ha. I pour melted Vaseline into the disposable vet syringes, and grind the cutting point off of a one inch, #12 hypo needle. I have squeezed the plastic singer tube of lube into grease holes and had the lube puke back out at me from the trapped air in the grease fitting. Plastic syringe works great. Getting cold, gotta put wood in the furnace.
Johnm
Johnm
I can only imagine the noise the springs were making on the commutator. *shudder* I bought a log splitter last year, totally freed up time to use up a sewing machine. Yeah the more I'm thinking about it, the more I'm wondering why it didn't occur to me to put that lube in a syringe. Of course, I used up all of my syringes last week - which is probably why I thought of it today. *sigh*
01-19-2016, 10:14 PM
#32
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So far (without expert assistance) I've learned that GREASE is basically some kind of OIL held within a "soap". The common soaps are calcium, sodium, and lithium based. The soaps can each be formulated to different hardness levels, rated by NLGI (National Lubricating Grease Institute) from 000(very soft) to 6(very hard; like a bar of, you guessed it, soap). Petroleum jelly is about 2 on that scale (but PJ is not really a grease, it's just greasy). The old, translucent Singer grease is also about 2, maybe 2.5. The degree of hardness is controlled during manufacture by using heavier or lighter "fractions" of petroleum (it's more complicated but that will suffice).
The Melt Point (temperature at which grease changes from semi-solid to liquid) is controlled by the soap base chemical. Lithium greases melt at 350-400F, sodium at 250-300F, calcium at 160-200F. PJ melts at 100-105F. The melt points can also be manipulated (within those ranges) during manufacture.
Old grease often oxidizes and gets harder, particularly if in plastic tubes, but it takes several to many years; the tin or lead tubes don't "breathe" if tightly capped and seams are undamaged but I still think it hardens somewhat given enough decades/centuries.
-Phil
The Melt Point (temperature at which grease changes from semi-solid to liquid) is controlled by the soap base chemical. Lithium greases melt at 350-400F, sodium at 250-300F, calcium at 160-200F. PJ melts at 100-105F. The melt points can also be manipulated (within those ranges) during manufacture.
Old grease often oxidizes and gets harder, particularly if in plastic tubes, but it takes several to many years; the tin or lead tubes don't "breathe" if tightly capped and seams are undamaged but I still think it hardens somewhat given enough decades/centuries
.-Phil
02-02-2016, 02:28 PM
#33
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I believe you're right Phil. It seems like what the oils are suspended in is what's causing our trouble.
Today, I received an order of Singer Lube and it's the wrong stuff.
I received a blue tube - probably updated to look more modern but basically the same stuff Joe has.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]541756[/ATTACH]
I popped some in the toaster oven to see what it would do.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]541755[/ATTACH]
Crap.
That residue is bad and potentially the fact that it's spreading faster than the original is bad too. It seems to me it may be less stable and the residue will clog the wicks.
I'm going to spend the next little bit on the phone with a couple of electric motor repair shops and see what they say.
Today, I received an order of Singer Lube and it's the wrong stuff.
I received a blue tube - probably updated to look more modern but basically the same stuff Joe has.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]541756[/ATTACH]
I popped some in the toaster oven to see what it would do.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]541755[/ATTACH]
Crap.
That residue is bad and potentially the fact that it's spreading faster than the original is bad too. It seems to me it may be less stable and the residue will clog the wicks.
I'm going to spend the next little bit on the phone with a couple of electric motor repair shops and see what they say.
02-02-2016, 04:50 PM
#35
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Alright, so I think I basically got from the electric motor shops what I expected to hear.
Shop #1 suggested a non-detergent oil:
My thoughts on this:
Shop #2 - Suggested Lubriplate 105 assembly grease. This is the same thing that was mentioned earlier in this thread as a very good lubricant. The concern I have is that it contains zinc-oxide as well. https://www.lubriplate.com/PDFs/SDS/...100Series.html This has the potential to clog the wicks - especially if it's what's in the new Singer lube and leaving that yuck on the paper towel. It sure looks right if you see what the ZO powder looks like. It also has a melting point of 170F. Higher but maybe still OK?
Shop #3 - At first he suggested 3in1 oil because that's what the industrial motors use (a commercial version of it but 3in1 oil all the same) but I mentioned that it 1. is a liquid not a solid when cold. 2. dries to cement if let sit. He agreed about its downsides then we discussed the petroleum jelly. The need for a low melting point, thus likely not a synthetic, the fact that it's recommended in other brands of motors, its safety for human use and its very good lubricating properties. He thinks there's nothing wrong with it and can't see why it would be problematic. He also suggested one more shop in a different province who might have a packaged solution or some other suggestions. I will call them in the morning since it was far too late to do it by the time I got off the phone with Shop #3.
So, to reiterate:
Thoughts? Comments?
Additionally, I showed my supplier the new lube and how it looks after a while under low heat (simulating the heat of a motor over time) and they agree that it's not OK. They're going to get in touch with their supplier/manufacturer and ask what's up, so there may be more info coming.
Shop #1 suggested a non-detergent oil:
My thoughts on this:
- assuming there are wicks in the grease tubes, this would be OK BUT
- not all grease tubes have wicks
- it would have to be repeated fairly often
- if the wick was already saturated with grease it would need to be replaced first then the oil put in and a person would have to be VERY careful not to over fill and to monitor the wicks and make sure they're not getting dry.
Shop #2 - Suggested Lubriplate 105 assembly grease. This is the same thing that was mentioned earlier in this thread as a very good lubricant. The concern I have is that it contains zinc-oxide as well. https://www.lubriplate.com/PDFs/SDS/...100Series.html This has the potential to clog the wicks - especially if it's what's in the new Singer lube and leaving that yuck on the paper towel. It sure looks right if you see what the ZO powder looks like. It also has a melting point of 170F. Higher but maybe still OK?
Shop #3 - At first he suggested 3in1 oil because that's what the industrial motors use (a commercial version of it but 3in1 oil all the same) but I mentioned that it 1. is a liquid not a solid when cold. 2. dries to cement if let sit. He agreed about its downsides then we discussed the petroleum jelly. The need for a low melting point, thus likely not a synthetic, the fact that it's recommended in other brands of motors, its safety for human use and its very good lubricating properties. He thinks there's nothing wrong with it and can't see why it would be problematic. He also suggested one more shop in a different province who might have a packaged solution or some other suggestions. I will call them in the morning since it was far too late to do it by the time I got off the phone with Shop #3.
So, to reiterate:
- I am NOT advocating the use of 3in1 oil in a motor. At all. Ever.
- An electric motor shop (once they stopped laughing about the size of motor I was asking about ) seems to think that petroleum jelly shouldn't be a problem.
Thoughts? Comments?
Additionally, I showed my supplier the new lube and how it looks after a while under low heat (simulating the heat of a motor over time) and they agree that it's not OK. They're going to get in touch with their supplier/manufacturer and ask what's up, so there may be more info coming.
Last edited by ArchaicArcane; 02-02-2016 at 04:53 PM.
02-02-2016, 05:04 PM
#36
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My thoughts are not expert, I don't know much about electrical motors, but for what it's woth: There has to be something better than petroleum jelly. I'm going to look up what the large tub of grease they use at the bike shop here. Its' a kind of general grease really not made for bicycles, but it's just a fraction of the cost in large buckets. It looks very much like the original Singer grease made in 1950, very smooth between the fingers, but I have no idea of it's melting point, petroleum or synthetic. Then again, if petroleum jelly is very good stuff?
02-02-2016, 05:29 PM
#37
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The funny part is, in talking with people at these shops - they did agree on one thing - there aren't really any good low temperature greases. That may be in their own electrical related universes, I don't know but it was interesting to hear.
You've mentioned more than once that there has to be something better. What's wrong with PJ?
You've mentioned more than once that there has to be something better. What's wrong with PJ?
02-02-2016, 07:53 PM
#38
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Montana, USA
Posts: 84
Originally Posted by ArchaicArcane
I believe you're right Phil. It seems like what the oils are suspended in is what's causing our trouble.
Today, I received an order of Singer Lube and it's the wrong stuff.
I received a blue tube - probably updated to look more modern but basically the same stuff Joe has.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]541756[/ATTACH]
I popped some in the toaster oven to see what it would do.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]541755[/ATTACH]
Crap.
That residue is bad and potentially the fact that it's spreading faster than the original is bad too. It seems to me it may be less stable and the residue will clog the wicks.
I'm going to spend the next little bit on the phone with a couple of electric motor repair shops and see what they say.
Today, I received an order of Singer Lube and it's the wrong stuff.
I received a blue tube - probably updated to look more modern but basically the same stuff Joe has.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]541756[/ATTACH]
I popped some in the toaster oven to see what it would do.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]541755[/ATTACH]
Crap.
That residue is bad and potentially the fact that it's spreading faster than the original is bad too. It seems to me it may be less stable and the residue will clog the wicks.
I'm going to spend the next little bit on the phone with a couple of electric motor repair shops and see what they say.
02-02-2016, 08:39 PM
#39
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Location: Montana, USA
Posts: 84
02-02-2016, 08:58 PM
#40
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Originally Posted by Margie07
Is this good reproduction lubricant? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Singer-Feath...kAAOSwbdpWX1~f
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