I haven't tried any of these techniques. I was told that the Derwents Inktense pencils are permanent after you wet them. Someone on the board suggested using aloe vera gel instead of water because it is easier to control. I was always told that to make other pencils permanent you need to apply a paint medium I can't remember the name. Like I said I have never tried this. I guess I would try making a couple of samples and running them thru the washing machine several times before I did a big project.