I have a good quilting friend and recently we went shopping and I purchased a pattern. It was a $12 pattern with lots of embroidery in it and we both loved it. She works at a quilt shop where there is a large light table and said when it came time to trace my pattern I could come in and use it. When I was there yesterday she asked if I brought the pattern so "we" could start tracing it. It seems she assumed that I would share the pattern with her. I think that if she wants to make her own, she should have have purchased one herself. Am I being selfish? The designer of the pattern deserves her cut too! I am concerned about offending my friend. I know people do this all the time, but it doesn't sit right with me.

Then tell her that you are very sorry, but you can't share the pattern because it would be unfair to the designer and a violation of copyright law. And tell her that you would like to "support" that designer by having as many people as possible buy their own pattern. In other words, "Just say NO".

if you're uncomfortable with it just tell her that - i've found people get offend when you make up stories, just tell her the truth - you believe the quilt artist she get her cut for her time.

The fact that you are using the light table at her workplace puts you in untenable situation. Stay home and copy it on a window facing the sun.

You are correct and she should know that. Kudos to you for being fair to the creative people who made it in the first place.

Taking your friend's comments in the best possible way, she might have been saying that she would help you trace the pattern for yourself particularly if it is intricate and will take some time to do it. However, if that might not be the case it will be very awkward as I agree with you about patterns and copyright. It seems to me you have two choices. You can simply tell your friend that you are very committed to design copyright practices and she is putting you in an awkward position by asking this when the pattern is still available for sale and easily obtainable. or... you could take the turtle approach. Work on it out of her sight and if she brings it up again say that you've gone off it for a while. If she gets insistent, tell her you'll sell her your copy and then get yourself another one. Although best to make sure in advance that you *can* still get another one.

Actually I have a much bigger problem with your friend's rudeness in assuming that you will share. It's one thing to accept an offer, it's quite another to insist on a share you have not earned in something.

Just my humble opinion and worth the price paid for it.:-)
Diana

Actually, I do agree with this one, sort of. Not the untenable part, just that this does avoid any conflict.

I think that she misunderstood when you bought it and thought that it would be shared. Perhaps some of her other friends share them like that or she shares her patterns with them. I think I would explain to her the misunderstanding and then share it with her just this once to save her some embarassment but make it clear that you aren't going to do it again. Then I would have her do the tracing, you paid for the pattern, she should do the work to copy it.

This topic has come up a few times, friends who want/assume they can use patterns that they know you have and the controversy with regard to the designer's rights to the pattern, not to mention the markup the retailer would have received, and the printer (etc).

So I have to ask. What is the difference between someone "sharing" a pattern and someone selling a used pattern here on QB? The only difference is that the original purchaser gets a few $$ but not anyone else in the loop.

Just curious - not judgemental. I've bought used books here and I guess now I'm questioning it.

I'm sorry you're in such a sticky position. I agree with copying it at home and pointing out that violating the copyright is illegal. If she's a true friend, she should understand.

Well, I suppose you can share if you want. I've shared books many times, as well as CD's. But if it is an artist/author I am especially fond of, I have no problem saying, "Ya know, I would lend it to you, but this is one of my favorite authors/artists, and I really want to support their work, which means making sure they get the royalties they deserve. So I'm going to ask you to buy your own copy." Or I just say "I don't lend books or CD's because I've had too many never returned", or "I'm sorry, it's just too expensive for me to lend."

You shouldn't have to make too many explanations. Friends don't need them and enemies won't believe you anyhow.

It's just the way the law is written. It is completely legal to buy/sell used books and patterns.

"Oh, do you share patterns with others? I'm not comfortable doing that. Professional quilters don't make much money, and I really want to support them where I can."

period.

There are numerous threads on here about copyright laws so you should do a search. If your friend works in a quiltshop she knows the law and knows it is wrong to do this. That is one reason QS's will NOT take back patterns for fear the purchaser copied the pattern. You can legally sell patterns/books you have used but cannot photocopy them for friends.

If she just said "we" could start tracing it, she may have just meant she'd help you. She may not have been assuming she'd get a copy. When you're done with the pattern, I would think you could loan it to her (the original pattern) without infringing on the copyright.

Yup - it's legal. Bellow from Wikipedia. (and BTW for our overseas friends - Wiki mentioned that the EU does NOT have a "first sale doctrine" law).

"The first-sale doctrine is a limitation on copyright that was recognized by the Supreme Court of the United States in 1908 (see Bobbs-Merrill Co. v. Straus) and subsequently codified in the Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. § 109. The doctrine allows the purchaser to transfer (i.e., sell, lend or give away) a particular lawfully made copy of the copyrighted work without permission once it has been obtained. This means that the copyright holder's rights to control the change of ownership of a particular copy ends once ownership of that copy has passed to someone else, as long as the copy itself is not an infringing copy. This doctrine is also referred to as the "right of first sale," "first sale rule," or "exhaustion rule."

I'm more comfortable with the whole concept now.

My suggestion to the original poster (getting back to the subject) is if your uncomfortable with it tell her exactly how you feel. Keep in mind that you are receiving a service for sharing the work. Is she a friend that infringes on your good-will often? If so, I too might be reluctant, and instead opt to do the copying at home. If not, I would share on the basis that the service she is offering is worth half the price of the pattern.

So, you would be in the clear to make the pattern and then sell it to her? At that point, what difference would it make if you shared? The designer isn't going to make any more money either way.

It seems that if we are so concerned about designers getting their cut (and we should be so they can keep designing), we should all agree that we won't sell used patterns.

Just realizing the loopholes in copyright laws - I've never really thought about it before.

I agree with everyone's comments.

This goes to the heart of the copyright laws and their issues. It is also shocking to hear from someone who works directly in the industry.

I would not continue the practice (if you have in the past) of using the store's light box in the future even in a class setting. I would get my own to use at home.

I would have a frank discussion with this person. You might also want to have this discussion with others being present. That way you would have witnesses to your conversation with her. You are right in your opinion and stand. I would explain your thoughts to her and say that as a professional herself, you know that she will not take your answer personally. She should want to support the designer and her work and the buying of patterns and books is how that is accomplished. She needs to get her own copy for her own use. If she does hold this against you in your future dealings then she was not a true friend.

Pam M

Which one do you want to keep, your friend or your 12.00 pattern?

Well, if she gave you $6 then she would legally become the co-owner of the pattern, and would then have the same rights as you. :wink: :wink: :wink:

Just kidding, although I think it is a valid point.

I agree with this. Personally I wouldn't mind since I would be using her space and equipment. She may have a pattern in the future you may want.

Excellent point. If we profit from it, it seems okay and even 'fair' to share. I never looked at it in this light before. Thanks for that perspective. :D

As for the original question as to what to say to your friend about sharing the pattern, I think if it bothers you to share it, then don't. Simply tell her it goes against your sense of right and wrong. If she's a true friend, she will accept and respect your sensibility on this.

When she said "we" do you think she really meant she would get to trace her own or was it an offer to help you as she did offer her space and equipment? You are the only one who can really know this since you know her personality and her facial expressions and tone.

If you really believe that she means to share the pattern maybe you can say "yes it was X amoutn of dollars - are we splitting it equially or is there some offsent for me using your table?"....

I don't have a problem sharing this stuff - yes I know all about copy right laws but I'm generally not selling my stuff - I'm spending my money and giving it all away....

Sticky situation - sorry your there!

You brought up a very good point.

I am ambivalent about this. You are profiting from her light box usage and the manufacturer of that is losing out on money and you dont feel bad about that. I think it is what you agreed to as friends. She feels she is swapping. If you dont feel the same way dont use her light box.

I would say, ....I don't want to copy the pattern, that's not legal and the quilt shop owner could get in lots of trouble.

I would not use the light box at that shop at all.

I share my quilting tools, I'm not hung up on being that righteous, but I wouldn't use a store's tools unless it was advertised as free to use.

Don't it seem that we all know someone like that? I went to a mitering class and bought all the rulers, etc. It was money well spent. Well one of my friends said, "Well, you went and liked it, now you can show me. I don't have time to take a class, besides who would want to waste the money". I have yet to find time to show her. People assume alot and a there is a huge difference between a friend and an acquaintance.

Wow, I'm guess I'm the odd jerk...I'd let her use it. Of course I'd never do anything like make copies and sell them or distribute/make public (as on the internet), but sharing with a friend? You betcha.

MTS, I like your thinking, good point and thought.

What would be the diference between lending out of public library and a personal library? Just my thoughts.
I have lent many books both quilting and non -quilting from my personal library.

I get mad when I buy all the supplies and special tools and book for a class and then have a class member ask if she can borrow them during the class or worse pick them up when I'm not using them. I don't mind someone asking to borrow my tools to take to a class, but not during. One time I had to go search for my book after asking everyone if they had seen it, good thing I had the author sign it for me or I would not have known who had it. I was very angry and the whole class knew it.

Yup - it's legal. Below from Wikipedia:

"The first-sale doctrine is a limitation on copyright that was recognized by the Supreme Court of the United States in 1908 (see Bobbs-Merrill Co. v. Straus) and subsequently codified in the Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. § 109. The doctrine allows the purchaser to transfer (i.e., sell, lend or give away) a particular lawfully made copy of the copyrighted work without permission once it has been obtained. This means that the copyright holder's rights to control the change of ownership of a particular copy ends once ownership of that copy has passed to someone else, as long as the copy itself is not an infringing copy. This doctrine is also referred to as the "right of first sale," "first sale rule," or "exhaustion rule."

It sounds, according to this, that one is perfectly in one's rights to give away a pattern after purchasing it. If the original poster chooses not to do so in an effort to generate more sales for the designer as a show of support, that is certainly her choice, but it doesn't sound like she is legally obligated to do so...

I don't get what the difference is between my quilt guild's lending library, and sharing a pattern with a friend.

Once you buy or receive a legal pattern, it's yours to give away or sell. You can not make a copy to give away or sell.

Why does she need the pattern at the same time as you?
Can't she wait until you're finished with it?

Exactly. EVEN if you sell it for a profit.

Consider at the Audibon book that sold for $11 million. If the copyright laws extended to every resale of the book the original publisher would still hold the rights to all subsequent sales of the book. Wouldn't that be nice?

Ditto.... I agree with this all the way.

Double exactly!
You aren't putting another "copy" of the item in question out into circulation. It's still the one copy of the pattern, the book, whatever.

So, yes, you can lend, sell, donate the pattern - even with a monetary gain for yourself, but it is still the SAME unit, not a duplicate.

And I know that all sounds so nit-picky today, but really, think about it, would you have ever though you'd have a printer or a scanner so easily available in your home or office, or even a kinko's 20 years ago?

Me too. When I was doing counted cross stitch a friend and I used to share patterns and magazines. It all evened out in the end.

The copyright rules for cross stitch can be a bit different, since the item made is actually a representation of another person's artwork or drawing. They're more strict than they may be for some forms of quilting. Some cross stitch designers really enforce their rights.