I agree with you 100%. There are too many patterns, too many of them done with a little difference and under someone else's name. We but it, we use it, we do whatever we want. It is ours to decide what to do.
I do not have to advertise the company or any body's name.
You said it very clearly.

My question is, how do I know if something I decided to do because I liked the look when I tried it is copyright out there somewhere by somebody else who had the same idea?

For instance I took strips, stitched them together, cut into triangles and restitched with one of each color set to make a square,dozens if not hundreds of other people have done the same thing. It may even have a "name", but I'm neither claiming it as an original nor planning to look at every book, magazine and website to see who else did it. I'll most likely give it away anyhow, but this discussion is telling me I'd have to do all that research if I did want to sell it???

Even if I buy a pattern for something, I rarely do it just like the original pattern. For me a pattern is a starting point, not a play by play description of what I'm going to make.

And if I had to give credit for my inspiration for a given quilt, you most likely would say how on earth did that quilt come out of that picture of something with a totally different design and colors. (At this point in time that's the only one likely to be worthy of entering in a show once it's quilted) I'm thinking of my Around the World in shades of green that was inspired by a magazine cover that was shades of hot pinks, oranges and purples and the only similarity is the shading from one to the next.

I just don't see how a copyright can cover anything other than the pattern itself, especially with quilt blocks!

In order to be guilty of copyright infringement, you must have had access to the original design. If you didn't see it somewhere, you obviously didn't copy it.

I found out the pattern design may be copyrighted but the instructions how to make the pattern cannot be copyrighted! The law is confusing as to what is a useful item. Patterns for useful items cannot be copyrighted. The package the pattern comes in can be copyrighted.

I don't know your source of information, but the instructions are most certainly copyrightable. Anything you write, illustrate, or photograph is covered by copyright as soon as it is made public. The pattern, the design, and any quilt made from either do not fall under the "useful item" category for copyright purposes as has been demonstrated in court casess.

So, if I make a quilt from a pattern and want to enter it in the State Fair or a local quilt show, I have to get permission from the designer to be able to display it publically? Does that mean that quilt store owners cannot put up a display quilt without permission from the designer? So, if I give away a quilt and that person displays it, they still have to research the pattern and get permission if I didn't put the designer's name on the label?

Honestly, what would happen if I didn't? I am not making money off my quilt... at most, getting a ribbon. So, there is absolutely no monotary gain on my part, which would mean that I am not causing the designer a loss of income. If anything, I am putting out their design for others to see, and potentially buy the pattern.

How many of us have posted pictures of quilts we have done and NOT credited the designer? Does that mean that every picture on this board that has not done so is violating copyright? I have purchased at least half a dozen patterns I would not have had I NOT seen someone's quilt on this board. That is free advertising for those designers. For them to say, "NO" would be like shooting themselves in the feet.

So what's to stop people from lying and saying they have never seen the original design in any form? I would think for the designers it would be hard to prove, unless it was very obvious.

It seems to me an unlikely thing that a lawyer would be hired to recapture a $6 royalty. I think it would have to be proven that serious monetary damage had been done to make it worthwhile. But that is only my opinion.

Misty,
You can absolutely enter a show, or post pictures of any quilts
you have made without the permission of the designer. And
you are absolutely right - it is great advertising for the designer.
In fact, just this morning I received a call from a woman in
another state wanting to purchase one of my patterns. She
had been at a retreat all weekend and another lady was making
a quilt from my pattern. This woman saw it, liked it, and
got my info so she could contact me to purchase it. If she hadn't
seen the other lady making my pattern, it would not have
resulted in a sale for me. Quilter's sharing their work, and
things they are working on is a great thing for everyone,
including the designer.

As I have read many of the posts in this tread, I am seeing
a lot of misinformation about copyright law. My hope is that no
one will get scared of posting pictures, sharing their quilts,
entering shows, or even putting their work in a quilt shop.
The biggest thing is just don't make photo copies of a pattern
and pass it out to a class, or a bunch of friends - instead tell
your class or friends where they can purchase the pattern if
they like it. That's the bottom line. Otherwise, please feel free
to continue sharing pictures, etc. That's a good thing and not
in violation of copyright law.

So here's one a little off topic but not by much.
If you decide to teach a class can you instruct students to pick up XX Book to use as a guide?? Or would it be wisest to choose a public domain Example; irish chain or log cabin to work with. These have both been around forever and published i'm sure many times.
Keep in mind no affilation w/any illustrator, book, etc.

C. Cal,
Yes, you can absolutely teach from a pattern or
book, but you need to include in the supplies a
copy of that pattern or book for each student.
In other words, when you give the students
their list of supplies, the pattern or book should
be a part of that list. We designers are thrilled
when our pattern or a quilt from a book we
wrote is taught in a class - that is a great
compliment. I am coming from both designer
and quilt teacher of many years. And when I
was a new quilter, I took several classes.
The teacher always had everyone in the class
purchase their own copy of the book or pattern she
was teaching from - at least the reputable teachers did.

I do have one more thing to add. I think this thread
has really scared a lot of people into thinking that if
they make a quilt from a pattern, book, or magazine,
and then share that quilt in any way, they will be in trouble.
I really hate it that this discussion has led to that. Most
of you are honest quilters who just love to make quilts
and you shouldn't be this worried that the copyright laws
are such that you can't continue to do things as you have.

As I said in an earlier post - if you don't photo copy a
pattern and then pass it out to a group, try to sell it
on e-bay or some place like that, or take someone
else's design and instructions, re-write it somewhat,
change a percentage of it, and then try to pass it off
as your own, you are fine.
Marcia

Actually, you do not need permission to sell what you make from a design or pattern. The only thing that is copyrighted is the pattern and/or pictures themselves. An item made from that pattern is yours to do with as you please. A lot of people try to tell you that you can't make something and sell it but you can. Just don't try to sell the actual pattern itself, that you can not do. And NO, you do not have to give the person who posted the tutorial, taught the class etc., credit if you don't want to.

From the U. S. Copyright office:

"How do I protect my idea?
Copyright does not protect ideas, concepts, systems, or methods of doing something. You may express your ideas in writing or drawings and claim copyright in your description, but be aware that copyright will not protect the idea itself as revealed in your written or artistic work".

So you can learn techniques from a book and make and sell them all you want. I have even seen doll patterns that people sell that try to tell you that you can not change the pattern to suit your needs to make an item. But, if you buy a pattern, you can change it any way you like to make your item and yes you can sell your item and without giving credit.

So, those people selling their finished products on Etsy are doing it legally.

The article in McCall's magazine is written by a patent attorney and contridicts what you say.

You can sell the pattern you purchased, if it is the original. You just cannot make a copy to keep for yourself before you sell it. You CAN resell a pattern you bought... no different from a piece of art, or a book.

get 5 lawyers in a room.
each lawyer is working for a different client.
each client has a vested interested in the answer to a question.
now ask the question.

you'll get at least 5 differing opinions - each based on the outcome desired by the clients.

a lawyer who makes his living filing cases on behalf of copyright holders will have armed himself with an arsenal of cases references and interpretations that support his arguments on behalf of his clients.

a lawyer who makes his living defending the accused will have his own quiver of legal arrows.

the judge will sift through all the legalize and gobbledygook and use tests and standards of reasonableness as the basis of his ruling.

i'm very happy to see that everyone is conscientious and does not want to break a law or deprive professional designers of rightful income. but, seriously, most of the worry is unneccessary. the rules of thumb are so simple:

(1) if you didn't design it, don't say you did. give credit where it's due.
(2) if you didn't create and publish the pattern, don't pass out copies of it. tell your friends where they can get their own.
(3) don't pass out copies of pages from books or magazines. tell your friends where they can get their own.
(4) if you want to enter something into a show, check the rules of that show and follow them.
(5) put yourself in the shoes of the person trying to make an honest living from her talents.
(6) if you want to go professional, invest some time in research. it will be your most valuable tool.

remember The Golden Rule and act accordingly.

see? easy peezy. ;-)

Well said!! That is exactly what I was trying to convey, but
I tend to do it with a diatribe, when all I need to do is like
you did - Thanks!!

you haven't lived until you've seen one of my diatribes.

people start reading as fresh-faced youth. by the time they've slogged through to the end, they're in line to apply for social security. :lol:

L.O.L Thanks for the helpful information... now I need to go look up the word "diatribe" :)
Happy Quilting :)

I really want to stay away from responding to anything on this thread, but this, let me try to explain this.

If you DO NOT state (and I would think that unless the organization that you are submitting it to requests a letter of permission, that stating is enough) that your quilt at the state fair is from the pattern or book by Jane Doe, or that you based your design on a photograph you saw by Jane Doe, or that you used a kit sold by Jane Doe, you are mis-representing yourself to the judges and the audience, who certainly could and may assume you DESIGNED the quilt as well as sewed and quilted it.

WHY would you NOT want to give credit where credit is due? It isn't great advertising to the designer if you neglect to say she designed it, because how am I to know this if I wander through the state fair and see your quilt? How can I know that I too can make a Jane Doe quilt?

darn it ALL, Patrice!! I didn't read your response before hitting send.

What you have stated is just about EXACTLY what I have written up in a blog that is about to be posted over the weekend. (Just so ya know, I wrote it YESTERDAY, so they be MY thoughts, my very own. Even if you DID just write all this.:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Oh no, should I be watching for a Quilters Wet Noodle Slappin contest over the weekend???? :lol: :lol: ;)

Okay. I have rarely seen a quilt in a show or fair that has included the pattern designer (even at professional booths that show off long-arm skills). , I feel like I got a "well, duh" type of answer. I am trying hard not to feel like I was personally attacked for asking about including the designer's name when this doesn't appear to be the norm at all. Since I have never shown a quilt, I wasn't sure if this was expected since I haven't seen this being done, for the most part, and I doubt that most of the quilts were original creations and not from a pattern somewhere.

You go right ahead and vent, and I'll vent right along with you! Sometimes folks just don't know what is right, and sometimes they just don't care. Sometimes people take credit for something that they didn't do, plagiarism, copyright infringement, or cheating. The world is a strange place from time to time.

I have faith that most of us do not steal or cheat. I believe we are honest quilters, enjoying our craft. We love seeing what everyone else has done and love sharing our ideas and sources.

Sometimes things get very confusing when talking about copyright laws. There have been many ideas brought forward about all of this and all are welcome.

However, I am sad to notice that some of our friends feel like they were criticized because they expressed an opinion or asked a question.

Have seen where some shows require, name of the source of pattern, Could be McCalls, or Jane Doe, same as who Quilted the work. The originality is generally your color choices, and work. All other is kind and considerate to give credit where due, hopefully that is the correct source. :)

i think i've read all the way through the topic. i'm fairly certain i didn't read anything that jumped out to me as a personal attack on anybody. i hope i didn't miss something because we definitely don't want such things to happen around here.

i can promise you that nothing i said was intended to point to or chastise anybody at all, let alone any one person in particular.

that said, i'm sure i speak for everyone when i say we're sorry if something in the responses made you feel badly. this conversation addresses a subject that is "touchy" and confusing to a lot of people. with so many differing interpretations offered up by countless "experts", debate is unavoidable.

a spirited debate is not a bad thing. it offers all of us a chance to share our understanding or perspective of the topic at hand. it also offers opportunities to learn something new.

debate = good. arguments and catfights = bad.

so far, i think we're well on the "good" side of the line. ;-)

no worries there. i prefer to eat my noodles. ;-) :lol:

no worries here, either. i'm much too cheap to pay a lawyer. :lol:

This article is interesting about the subject.

http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/...lArticle.shtml

Carolyn Peters is also a quilter

[quote=C.Cal Quilt Girl][quote=aliaslaceygreen]LMBO!!!! Too funny. It IS amazing how Great Minds think alike!!
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: All in fun, Patrice, all in fun! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

You WERE NOT personally attacked. Your question was the ONLY one I felt even marginally comfortable answering. As you will note, nowhere in my response did I state any part of copyright law. I asked a question of the general 'you' about how you would feel if it were done to you.

Two wrongs (or omissions) don't make a right. You don't have to know whether other people are doing what is right to do right yourself.

I was suggesting that we all place ourselves on the other side of the designers table.

And for some reason, no matter how carefully I or others phrase things on this board, someone is always willing to jump to the other end of the possible meaning. (Not just you MM, it seems a hobby here... :cry: :cry: :cry: )

I know that without hearing a tone of voice, or seeing body language expressions, that written communication can often be interpreted in a way that was not meant. I will take it as that.

I am very well-versed on what constitutes plagarism in the written and digital world, as well as the art world. I did my master's thesis on cyber-plagarism a few years ago. As a writer and English teacher, I constantly talk to my students about the importance of giving credit where credit is due.

However, since I don't see designer's names showing up on the paperwork that goes with many quilts in a show or a fair, I asked the question I did. I honestly don't think those quilters intended to mislead anyone. Granted, I have never been to a juried show... mostly guild shows and state fairs. I am sure in some of the fancy, shmancy quilt shows, there are stricter guidelines to adhere to.

You asked, I answered. I didn't call you out.

I am not willing to make more of this than it is---With your background, you understand perfectly about attribution.

There have been instances where quilters have neglected to say they worked from a kit/pattern and have gone home with the ribbon, despite the rules stating otherwise. (No, I don't have a link. I recall reading about it on other lists long ago.)

peace.
:D

You and McCalls are referring to a "patent", a whole different critter than a copyright. Copyright is just like I said in my previous post, a patent, if someone wants to spend the money and can actually get one, doesnot follow the same rules.

and we were doing so well. :roll:

yes, please.

peace. throw in some love, happiness, puppies and balloons.

now somebody start a chorus of Kumbaya and pass me the s'mores.

:lol:

I, officially, do not want to quilt ever again... seriously - if I have to be so afraid of breaking some law because of BUYING a pattern, not matter the source, and making sure I DO NOT copy and sell or give away (which I never do or will) but have to worry about someone seeing the quilt I too the time and effort and money to make and wanting to buy it... good grief...

It is obvious that this is a forum of people with exceptional quilting and intellectual ability. Maybe this is a nudge for all of us to brush up our creative skills, perhaps take a design class or two, and then be able to own our work completely. With a little training and EQ, we all have the ability to shine based on our own accomplishments and the satisfaction of knowing we owe nothing to anyone! Who knows, with this group of great minds, maybe this could release a whole new paradigm in design.

I admit that this thread has inspired me to take my own advice. I have taken a couple of classes in designing spirals and am starting one in bargello design. It is truly a joy to see a finished creation that started from scratch just out of my head and heart. The miracle is that your own design will look as good as any one else's and will truly be unique to you. (Kind of like our kids.)

Here is my take and what I think in a nutshell. (Yes, my brain is so tiny it can fit in there too.) If I am wrong please correct me, I want to understand this.

As long as you are not SELLING a quilt, a bag, etc. that you have purchased the pattern for it's okay. And you can sell such items if the pattern maker is alright with it. But if the pattern maker states that you cannot sell items you make from their patterns, that is covered under copyright.

If you use a pattern and enter a quilt in a show, it depends upon the venue whether or not they require you to specify whose pattern you are using. I would think it would be obviously wrong to claim someone else's pattern as your own. But making a quilt from a pattern and showing it is okay.

Where am I right/wrong?

well, pam, as you may have noticed already, you'll get conflicting answers from a number of sources who consider themselves experts.

the law itself isn't really all that confusing. it's all the differing opinions that muddy up the waters.

some pattern makers have successfully bullied buyers into believing they can dictate what's done with the finished product. nearly everything i've read from credible sources says that what you make using a pattern is yours to do with as you please.

most of us agree that, without or without the law, it's always a best practice to give credit to the designer.

I think you need to figure out what you want to do
Whats morally right or legally right. You can do both as well.

Morally you should respect the wishes of what others ask. Its just a simple curtsy.
Legally well thats what we have been discussing and as others have said its confusing and even attorneys can argue for each side and sound convincing.
I believe and I am not expert. That when you buy a pattern it is yours to do with as you want with the finish item.
You should not copy the pattern and sell that or give that away.
You also should not claim the design as your own.
As far as showing you have to follow the shows rules.

As long as your are not making copies of the pattern itself and distributing them you are within the law.

What you do with the product you make from that pattern is up to you. You can do anything you want with a product you make from that pattern; sell it, give it away whatever. A copyright does NOT cover an item that is made from a pattern.

VIRGINA SMITH: Love your last name, by the way. LOL

I love your comment. I would LOVE to have a version of EQ, but alas, I cannot spend the money on it. Daughter starts college in 3 weeks and needs a new tire for my car so she can drive it ($160 and takes 2 weeks to get when ordered)

I started this thread because I was so completely SICK of the "Nice Guy" finishing last. I went thru the trouble, cost, and effort to get permission from a designer to sell an item (whether I legally needed it or not who knows) and then someone I know in my area, who knew what I had done, started trying to sell the same thing without any attempt at getting permission. AND not even crediting the designer with the idea. Fortunately, their quality was NOT even in the same planet as mine. (evil snicker)


I am not trying to make a mint, Like I said before, I enjoy sewing/quilting, and each time I sell something I spend the money on more fabric or something to do with sewing/quilting.

And I will continue to ask any designers if they care if I sell items made from there patterns and give credit where credit is due. I feel that is the right thing to do and I can sleep at night.

I am so gald to see all the comments and questions on this thread. i really feel this has been the best copyright thread we have all made on this thread.