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Thread: Copyright aggrevation.

  1. #1
    Super Member knlsmith's Avatar
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    Okay, this is just a vent.

    I have done my work to make sure that everything I sell I am properly licensed and/or have permission to do so from the designer of the patterns I use. It takes a lot of work/time/money to obtain this priviledge. I am not complaining about that part of it. I love to work and I love to EARN the priviledge. It is my honor to recreate a designer's idea into fabric or whatever medium I desire. I find it to be very rewarding to be able to make things and sell them.

    My problem is whenever I get ready to list something on etsy or somewhere else, there are already people selling these items without a license/permission. So I don't even bother with it online.

    I am not trying to pay my house payment or truck payment. I just like to make enough to buy more fabric and supplies to make more items to sell. it is relaxing and fun to do.

    I just find it completely and utterly UNFAIR that people just willy nilly sell stuff without permission. If they had permission, they would know that most designers want their name mentioned as the designer and you (or me the one who makes the item) listed as the creator.

    UGH! At least I know I can sleep at night knowing that i did it the right way. But I had to "kick n scream" about it somewhere. Everyone here knows how much work, thought, and love goes into our handmade items so i thought this would be a safe place to vent.

    Thank you for your time. Ok. Now time to make some more bags! :)

  2. #2
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    Is this right?
    I bought a pattern on ebay. When I received it, the pattern had been pulled out of a quilting magazine. It just doesn't seem to be the right thing to do.

  3. #3
    Super Member knlsmith's Avatar
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    I don't know about patterns like that from magazines. All I know for sure is that each pattern has a copyright of some type, Ususally printed on the back or on their website, and the ones that i use you need permission to sell items made from the pattern.

    I see other people selling places without paying for the right to do so like I did.

  4. #4
    Super Member Scissor Queen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knlsmith
    I don't know about patterns like that from magazines. All I know for sure is that each pattern has a copyright of some type, Ususally printed on the back or on their website, and the ones that i use you need permission to sell items made from the pattern.

    I see other people selling places without paying for the right to do so like I did.
    You actually don't need permission to sell things made from any pattern. No matter what the designers think or try to tell you.

  5. #5
    Senior Member tortoisethreads's Avatar
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    I have several quilts on Etsy that I made myself. One quilt I made, I saw at an antique store so I sort of copied it. The blocks are the shoo fly which is a very old pattern. I also used to make children's clothes. Should we actually type in Butterick 2384 in the description? I had never really thought of that. Ooops, I may be one of the willy nilly's out there.

  6. #6
    Senior Member pam1966's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scissor Queen
    Quote Originally Posted by knlsmith
    I don't know about patterns like that from magazines. All I know for sure is that each pattern has a copyright of some type, Ususally printed on the back or on their website, and the ones that i use you need permission to sell items made from the pattern.

    I see other people selling places without paying for the right to do so like I did.
    You actually don't need permission to sell things made from any pattern. No matter what the designers think or try to tell you.
    What about when it says on the pattern itself that you can't? I'm really curious about this.

  7. #7
    Super Member ghostrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madelinkk
    Is this right?
    I bought a pattern on ebay. When I received it, the pattern had been pulled out of a quilting magazine. It just doesn't seem to be the right thing to do.
    If it was ripped out of the magazine, it's fine. If it was a photocopy of the magazine pages, it's not. Once someone purchases a pattern, either in a magazine or as a pattern, they can sell it or give it away as they choose. They cannot sell or give away copies, nor can they give away the original and keep a copy for themselves, without being in violation of copyright laws. Only the original document can exist without the express permission of the copyright holder (like copies for a class need permission). Hope that makes sense.

  8. #8
    Super Member Scissor Queen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pam1966
    Quote Originally Posted by Scissor Queen
    Quote Originally Posted by knlsmith
    I don't know about patterns like that from magazines. All I know for sure is that each pattern has a copyright of some type, Ususally printed on the back or on their website, and the ones that i use you need permission to sell items made from the pattern.

    I see other people selling places without paying for the right to do so like I did.
    You actually don't need permission to sell things made from any pattern. No matter what the designers think or try to tell you.
    What about when it says on the pattern itself that you can't? I'm really curious about this.
    It doesn't matter what it says on the pattern. They do not have the right to say what you can or can't do with items you have made.

    This link has a lot of links to actual court cases and court rulings. http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/trademarks.shtml

  9. #9
    mlaceruby's Avatar
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    Most of the patterns that I have seen say can be made for sale in limited numbers.
    But any quilt is an expression of the maker.
    I can make the same pattern 10 times with different fabrics and they are all unique. How can that be copyright infringement?
    This has most likely been covered and I should do a search to find the answer!

  10. #10
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    Sellers should be sensitive to the copyright of the pattern that they are using to complete an item and then in turn sell. Some patterns have very explicit information about selling for profit. Many just require credit given to the design creator while others prohibit sale for profit. There is one particular pattern called Magic Tiles that does not allow sale for profit and the designer has taken it upon herself to scout out use and go after those that are using it for profit.

    This is a very touchy issue and if you are using someone else's designs for selling be sure of the stipulations/copyright clauses that they request.

    On the other hand there are many of the older patterns that do not have a copyright. Many times a designer has taken an older bock and reworked it into a 'newer' design, whether it be in color or placement. These older patterns are considered to be already part of the public domain and copyright does not apply.

  11. #11
    Power Poster BellaBoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knlsmith
    Okay, this is just a vent.

    I have done my work to make sure that everything I sell I am properly licensed and/or have permission to do so from the designer of the patterns I use. It takes a lot of work/time/money to obtain this priviledge. I am not complaining about that part of it. I love to work and I love to EARN the priviledge. It is my honor to recreate a designer's idea into fabric or whatever medium I desire. I find it to be very rewarding to be able to make things and sell them.

    My problem is whenever I get ready to list something on etsy or somewhere else, there are already people selling these items without a license/permission. So I don't even bother with it online.

    I am not trying to pay my house payment or truck payment. I just like to make enough to buy more fabric and supplies to make more items to sell. it is relaxing and fun to do.

    I just find it completely and utterly UNFAIR that people just willy nilly sell stuff without permission. If they had permission, they would know that most designers want their name mentioned as the designer and you (or me the one who makes the item) listed as the creator.

    UGH! At least I know I can sleep at night knowing that i did it the right way. But I had to "kick n scream" about it somewhere. Everyone here knows how much work, thought, and love goes into our handmade items so i thought this would be a safe place to vent.

    Thank you for your time. Ok. Now time to make some more bags! :)
    I don't understand why you put yourself through all that if you bought the pattern or book to make the items you are selling. You can sell anything you make for any price you want as long as you don't claim it is your original design if the item was made from a copyrighted pattern.

  12. #12
    Power Poster BellaBoo's Avatar
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    Magic Tiles is outdated as far as being considered something new. It's just a variation on a stack-and-slash quilt, where you stack different fabric blocks and do a series of cuts and shuffles. When the cuts are sewn back together, you end up with different blocks for your quilt. Almost the exact same pattern was in one of the quilting magazine not long ago. I wouldn't buy the pattern, how to do the technique is on many blogs in tutorial form.

  13. #13
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    was is a Jenny beyer pattern the same thing happened to me.
    Charlotte

  14. #14
    JJs
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    which is why I make up my own - using something out of my head or old old blocks and put together my own way.... I've only done two quilts that were done by a pattern - the blooming 9 patch and the starry nights, but I still used my own color combinations etc...
    All the patterns from books, etc that I have are for "inspiration"....

  15. #15
    Super Member Rosyhf's Avatar
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    Most quilt patterns are in the public domain. The old ones. Most designer will say that you can make the item for fun and profit but not mass produce, which means, to set up a factory.....

    Why would I purchase a book or pattern if I can't sell what I make if I choose to do so. When I make a quilt I am under no obligation to say who designed the pattern. I have payed for it and the work is mine. If I want to share the designer's name so other's can make the quilt, I will gladly do so but it will not be on my label.

    The same applies when I paint ornaments or some cute stuff out of one of my painting books. I sign that piece with my name. I painted it. There is no need to say who designed it.

  16. #16
    Super Member Chele's Avatar
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    Let's be upstanding individuals and give credit where credit is due. Our creations are our intellectual property and are protected whether you believe it or not. Check the law. If you steal or "borrow" property and profit from it you may be confronted by the owner. In most cases all you have to do is ask permission and the owner is thrilled to share. How easy is that?

    I don't know where manners went, but I know we all know good manners. You wouldn't steal candy from your elderly neighbor and sell it to the neighborhood kids would you? Of course not. Let's show the quilting community we respect their contributions. We may be in their shoes some day.

  17. #17
    AbbyQuilts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chele
    Let's be upstanding individuals and give credit where credit is due. Our creations are our intellectual property and are protected whether you believe it or not. Check the law. If you steal or "borrow" property and profit from it you may be confronted by the owner. In most cases all you have to do is ask permission and the owner is thrilled to share. How easy is that?

    I don't know where manners went, but I know we all know good manners. You wouldn't steal candy from your elderly neighbor and sell it to the neighborhood kids would you? Of course not. Let's show the quilting community we respect their contributions. We may be in their shoes some day.

    I dont think anyone is saying not to use manners we are talking about the law
    And weather pattern makers likes it or not when a pattern is released for sale they lose all rights to dictate whats done with that pattern other then the pattern may not be copied and sold.
    If they want to limit who can make and sell items then they need to licenses their pattern and only those that agree to the licensing can make and sell the resulting product.
    And agreeing is not simply stating on the pattern that it can not be sold.

    I am not saying this to be rude or be argumentative but mis information about patterns is rampant in the craft industry

  18. #18
    Super Member Chele's Avatar
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    What if I figure out Apple's "pattern" for the IPhone? Do you think I could sell it? Or is that that license/law thing? Doesn't it really boil down to ethics or manners? If you didn't create it, you should really ask permission to profit from it.

    As an aside, I bet all of you talented quilters could come up with your own wonderful patterns. And I'm sure you'd be more than willing to share with the rest of the world. That's what I love about quilters. Huge hearts and sharing personalities. And if your fellow quilter made billions off your pattern without ever asking if it was okay, you'd send a congratulations bouquet, right? Laws or not, what's the right thing to do?

  19. #19
    Super Member Scissor Queen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chele
    What if I figure out Apple's "pattern" for the IPhone? Do you think I could sell it? Or is that that license/law thing? Doesn't it really boil down to ethics or manners? If you didn't create it, you should really ask permission to profit from it.

    As an aside, I bet all of you talented quilters could come up with your own wonderful patterns. And I'm sure you'd be more than willing to share with the rest of the world. That's what I love about quilters. Huge hearts and sharing personalities. And if your fellow quilter made billions off your pattern without ever asking if it was okay, you'd send a congratulations bouquet, right? Laws or not, what's the right thing to do?

    Sorry but your argument doesn't hold water. An iphone is not a pattern. It's not copyrighted either. An iphone, or any other type of electronics are trademarked and patented. Not even close to the same thing.

  20. #20
    Senior Member pam1966's Avatar
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    This is so confusing, but I'm going to go with my conscience here. There is a bag that I want to sell, however the pattern maker expressly states that you cannot make her bag to sell unless you pay her a fee. Whether I don't have to or not is moot; my conscience says I do.

    Didn't mean to interrupt the original poster here, but it's uncanny how this subject came up with me also.

  21. #21
    Junior Member katmom54's Avatar
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    I guess I am confused...I have seen a lot of discussion on this topic, and I wonder if there is just too much misunderstanding...so please educate me. ...
    Crafters, quilters, woodworkers, home designers, etc have all sold products made from other people's patterns - not once I have I seen credit given to anyone. I always understood that a pattern that is published and sold is then to be public and the crafter can use it as they wish. If a designer makes a product, and someone copies it without permission, then there is a problem. So, for example if I made 30 twisted bargello quilts and sold them at a fair, there should be no problem since I came by the pattern legitimately when I bought the book - I am not taking any special credit for the design, just the workmanship...but if I go to the quilt show, take a picture of a quilt and then make one to show myself - that is an infringement...
    Is it getting more complicated than that?

  22. #22
    Power Poster dunster's Avatar
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    In this case I wouldn't buy her pattern at all, because she is acting dishonestly by claiming that you need her permission to sell items you make with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by pam1966
    This is so confusing, but I'm going to go with my conscience here. There is a bag that I want to sell, however the pattern maker expressly states that you cannot make her bag to sell unless you pay her a fee. Whether I don't have to or not is moot; my conscience says I do.

    Didn't mean to interrupt the original poster here, but it's uncanny how this subject came up with me also.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by katmom54
    I guess I am confused...I have seen a lot of discussion on this topic, and I wonder if there is just too much misunderstanding...so please educate me. ...
    Crafters, quilters, woodworkers, home designers, etc have all sold products made from other people's patterns - not once I have I seen credit given to anyone. I always understood that a pattern that is published and sold is then to be public and the crafter can use it as they wish. If a designer makes a product, and someone copies it without permission, then there is a problem. So, for example if I made 30 twisted bargello quilts and sold them at a fair, there should be no problem since I came by the pattern legitimately when I bought the book - I am not taking any special credit for the design, just the workmanship...but if I go to the quilt show, take a picture of a quilt and then make one to show myself - that is an infringement...
    Is it getting more complicated than that?
    Nope you pretty much have it

    Also if a pattern maker does not want to make the pattern but wants to restrict who sells it then they need to licence the pattern instead of sell it (think of it like mc D's franchising)

  24. #24
    Power Poster dunster's Avatar
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    Chele, your heart is definitely in the right place, but perhaps we're talking about different things. There is a huge difference between making (and selling) items from a legally obtained pattern and copying someone's original work without permission.

    The legitimate use of a pattern is not a matter of ethics or manners. It is a matter of copyright law, which the pattern maker should understand before selling her pattern. If she wants to have more control than the law provides, she should not sell the pattern.

    It's not as if you are ripping off the pattern maker. You are paying the asking price for the pattern, and with that goes the right to make items from the pattern. You own whatever you make, and so you have the right to sell it if you choose. I say this from the standpoint of someone who is currently selling a quilt pattern. I hope that everyone who buys my pattern will make many, many quilts from it, and if they want to sell, display, give away, donate, or even burn those quilts, they have the absolute right to do so. I am being compensated for my time and expenses by the payment I receive from the pattern, and that is all I am entitled to. If someone wants to give me credit for having written the pattern, I will be thrilled to receive it, but I will look on that as a nice gesture, not as something the quilter was required by law or ethics to provide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chele
    What if I figure out Apple's "pattern" for the IPhone? Do you think I could sell it? Or is that that license/law thing? Doesn't it really boil down to ethics or manners? If you didn't create it, you should really ask permission to profit from it.

    As an aside, I bet all of you talented quilters could come up with your own wonderful patterns. And I'm sure you'd be more than willing to share with the rest of the world. That's what I love about quilters. Huge hearts and sharing personalities. And if your fellow quilter made billions off your pattern without ever asking if it was okay, you'd send a congratulations bouquet, right? Laws or not, what's the right thing to do?

  25. #25
    Super Member ghostrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunster
    In this case I wouldn't buy her pattern at all, because she is acting dishonestly by claiming that you need her permission to sell items you make with it.
    Please provide a resource for this fact as you state it. The artist/designer/writer of the pattern has every right to limit the commercial production of her work if she chooses to do so. She is not acting the least bit dishonestly, as you put it. I would like to see your source of information.

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