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Thread: Copyright aggrevation.

  1. #51
    Super Member MistyMarie's Avatar
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    I believe that if you use a pattern that you purchased, you have the right to sell your creation. If the designer of that pattern wanted exclusive rights to sell the finished project, they should NEVER have put the pattern out for sale. If you copy someone else's design and sell it without purchasing the pattern, then it is wrong.

    You cannot even use a commercial photo as inspiration for a painting or a quilt without getting permission from the holder of the copyright if you make money on the painting or quilt. If they recognize their photo in your painting or quilt, they can sue you, whether or not you gave them credit and/or you own a copy of their photo.

  2. #52
    Super Member vickig626's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madelinkk
    Is this right?
    I bought a pattern on ebay. When I received it, the pattern had been pulled out of a quilting magazine. It just doesn't seem to be the right thing to do.
    I ran across a pattern on ebay that someone was selling for around $14....someone had actually bid on it too. I have the same pattern that was "free" when I did a google search. I wanted to email the seller but wasn't sure what type of trouble I could have started since I didn't know details. All comments are posted online on ebay.

    e-patterns.com also sells patterns that are located in magazines and books. I bought the book on 101 potholders mainly for the variety of blocks. e-patterns does state it's from that book but why would anyone pay $5 for a few patterns when they can buy 101 patterns for $15???

  3. #53
    Super Member vickig626's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pam1966
    Quote Originally Posted by Scissor Queen
    Quote Originally Posted by knlsmith
    I don't know about patterns like that from magazines. All I know for sure is that each pattern has a copyright of some type, Ususally printed on the back or on their website, and the ones that i use you need permission to sell items made from the pattern.

    I see other people selling places without paying for the right to do so like I did.
    You actually don't need permission to sell things made from any pattern. No matter what the designers think or try to tell you.
    What about when it says on the pattern itself that you can't? I'm really curious about this.
    I've run into this as well. The pattern actually says it's only for personal use and items made from pattern can't be sold, which I think is unfair. I don't buy these patterns if they say that.

    My quilt instructor said that if a pattern is modified 40%, you can call it your own and sell it as your own and the items made.

  4. #54
    Super Member ghostrider's Avatar
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    In the cases fought by Michael Meaders and Karen Dudnikov, the eBay power sellers known as Tabberone that were cited by dunster, the question was whether or not they could sell items made from licensed fabrics, not whether they could sell items made from a copyrighted pattern. The reselling of licensed fabrics, whether as a finished item or simply as fabric, is accepted as allowed under the ďfirst sale doctrineĒ. In effect, the copyrighted item is the fabric and you are reselling your original copy of that item. Thatís fine, like reselling a book.

    Quilts made from patterns are a different story. If the design is original work, which I assume is what we are talking about here, then the design as well as the instructions and drawings are copyright protected. If the design is in the public domain, then only the instructions and drawings are copyright protected.

    The question here was the commercial production of items made from a copyrighted design. The copyrighted item is the pattern itself, meaning the book and everything included in it (i.e., the design). You may resell the original pattern as provided under the first sale doctrine, but you may not copy it in any way. I think we have pretty much agreed with that, right?

    Hereís the hard part. When you make the pattern into a quilt, you have copied the design into fabric form and that design is copyright protected. Yes, thatís the intended use and because of that fact, the pattern writer/designer has the right to decide how many of those copies you can make and whether or not you can sell them. Thatís why most patterns transfer limited rights to reproduce the design for personal use or small numbers of sale quilts. The first sale doctrine does not apply to quilts made from copyrighted patterns. The useful object exception does not apply to quilts (as Tabberone insists), because it is the design that is copyrighted, not the quilt. It is also disproved by several court cases that have upheld the rights of quilt designers.

    And there are cases in which designers have gone after those who infringe on their rights. When designer Judi Boisson learned her designs were being used on knock-offs made in China, she sued the chain stores responsible including Burlington Coat Factory, May Co., the Linen Source, Dayton Hudson, the QVC Home Shopping Network and the Shanghai company's New York office. She was awarded $600,000 in legal fees and damages.


    References:
    http://www.paulrapp.com/articles.php (he is a copyright attorney for artists)
    http://www.quiltingbusiness.com/quilting-copyright.htm
    http://www.kathleenbissett.com/Copyright%20Article.pdf
    http://lostquilt.com/index.php/prote...ht-your-quilt/
    http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.pdf
    http://www.allbusiness.com/marketing...1107196-1.html

  5. #55
    Super Member MistyMarie's Avatar
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    I often use my patterns as inspiration, but NONE of my final creations end up looking like the pattern because I always modify or alter the design to my own. That being said, so many patterns look alike. How can anyone be sure, especially with pieced blocks, that they are creating something that someone else hasn't done in the past?

    I few years ago, I designed a block and then a quilt to go with that block in EQ6. I was surprised to see the exact same designed block on the web. I never saw the block on the web before I created it myself. If I wanted to sell my block pattern, I would not be able to because someone else had "beaten" me to it, even though I, in no way, copied their block.

    I also see quilts in books that use the same block pattern as other books do. How can they do that and not violate copyright?

  6. #56

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    When one buys a Simplicity, McCalls pattern, it is assumably to make the item, so when I purchase a quilt pattern is it not to make the design? I doubt anyone would use the exact fabric, so it would not be an exact copy. I don't understand what the issue is here, unless someone makes exact replicas and tries to sell them, then it would not be fair to the designer.

  7. #57
    Super Member MistyMarie's Avatar
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    I can understand mass production from a pattern --- as in the case of Disney. I wouldn't buy a pattern if I could just go to the store and buy the quilt for a fraction of the cost of making it myself. However, I doubt seriously that designers care that much about someone who is selling a quilt or bag at a craft bazaar. It wouldn't be worth their time or effort to sue someone.

    That being said, this makes me feel like my quilts are not really my own anymore if I use a pattern.

  8. #58
    Super Member ghostrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajonkarl
    When one buys a Simplicity, McCalls pattern, it is assumably to make the item, so when I purchase a quilt pattern is it not to make the design? I doubt anyone would use the exact fabric, so it would not be an exact copy. I don't understand what the issue is here, unless someone makes exact replicas and tries to sell them, then it would not be fair to the designer.
    That's called a derivative work. If you have access to the original work (like a photo) and a 'reasonable observer' could see your work as 'substantially similar' to the original work, then it's a derivative work and it's copyright infringement. There is no 40% rule, change the color, size, fabric, etc qualifier that makes it okay.

  9. #59
    montanablu's Avatar
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    from MistiMarie -- "I often use my patterns as inspiration, but NONE of my final creations end up looking like the pattern because I always modify or alter the design to my own. That being said, so many patterns look alike. How can anyone be sure, especially with pieced blocks, that they are creating something that someone else hasn't done in the past?"

    After reading all the posts, I'm surprised this slant had not been mentioned before. Hasn't everyone seen - & wondered?! - about all the magazine patterns (as well as quilting patterns & books at retail) that are near exact duplicates of a previous pattern??! I can go thro my quilting magazines & show you dozens of patterns that are just like another magazine, even another issue of the same magazine! Not once has any aricle given credit to another mag or designer. And this is the publishing business?? If they don't seem to be concerned about copyright issues, why are we losing sleep over them?? You would think that if anyone would be extra cautious when it comes to copyright infringement, it would be the magazines & pattern publishers themselves.
    I've looked this subject up numerous times, & while we all have our 'take' on it, it just seems to be one of those never-ending debates that only give us wrinkles & gray hair. And I have enough already, don't need or want anymore! lol

  10. #60
    Super Member nena's Avatar
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    Ok I have a question. I was trying to get my daughter into quilting. sent her a couple of sites to look at. I also saw a beautiful quilt someone had done ,and copy and pasted it in a email so she could see how beautiful it was ,and maybe get interested in quilting. I received and email telling me to be careful because I had did something wrong ( still don't know what) about infringement???? So now I just dont send anything much because I am afraid I will do something wrong? Go figure. It had to be from this board or one other
    because that is all I go on. If it was here please let me know what it was. Thanks

  11. #61
    Super Member Favorite Fabrics's Avatar
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    I would love to know what you all think of this:

    http://www.oliverands.com/boutique/. Oliver & S makes some lovely patterns for little kids' clothing. They're also selling licenses, for $6 each, to make ONE item from the pattern, that you can sell. (For your $6 you also get a nice label to sew into the garment.)

    Now, if I were selling toddler dresses at a craft show, I would be hard pressed to be able to afford $6 to hand over to the pattern maker for each dress that I sell!

    So, while I understand the concept at work here, that Oliver & S would like to get some money for each "derivative work" sold, is the amount they're asking practical? Personally, I love their designs, but I'd never buy one because of this issue. The licensing part is just ... off-putting.

    What if you bought the pattern somewhere, and the seller did not inform you, prior to purchasing the pattern, that you could not use it to make items for sale?

    Thoughts?

  12. #62
    Super Member ghostrider's Avatar
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    The licensing agreement fees I'm familiar with are 5% of profit. Assuming the unlikely situation where profit is equal to gross sales, then a $6 fee would equate to a $120 selling price. Must be some special little dress!!

  13. #63
    Pati- in Phx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbbyQuilts
    The problem you run into with copyrighting quilt patterns is that it can fall into a useful item category and those can not be copyrighted.
    That was already proven years ago when a dress pattern was copyrighted and then taken to court. You can not copyright a dress pattern.

    Now as far as quilts well I guess that would be up to the judge at this present time.
    As far as I know no one has successfully sued based on copyrighting pattens, nor selling items resulting from the items.
    Check up court cases it is just not there that I can find.
    Normally if there has been a court case involving a major pattern maker you should be able to find it in case law.


    I wanted to add... I am not a lawyer I do research and look up things for fun.
    Also I respect the copyright notice on a pattern. I would never copy a pattern and sell it. Once a pattern is bought and I made the item I would sell it if that was my intention but I do not sell items.
    Actually, there has been at least one fairly famous case that was won by the designer.
    The hotel that connects to the convention center in Houston, where they hold Fall Market and Festival aka the Big Houston Quilt show, had new carpet made for them. The interior designer saw quilt and decided to have the carpet made to look like that style. Without permission of the designer of the quilt. Said designer did indeed sue. She was awarded damages and so much more.......

    And there are lots of bag, quilt and and such patterns that do have registered copyrights. And the copyrights, including the making and selling of items from such patterns have been enforced legally.

    Several years ago I came across the Taberone site. Much of what they deal with is using fabrics you have purchased to make items for sale. There were companies who have said you cannot make items from their licensed images to sell. This gets into the maze of First Sale doctrine and so forth. (And remember in most cases there is no direct involvement of a lawyer with the Taberone site. Lawyers are quoted from various other sites. ) A very different subject from copyrights and the rights of the pattern writers/designers as regards to reproducing the items for sale.

    This is very complex subject. Please, I urge all of you to err on the side of caution. The crux of the matter is that if designers feel they are being taken advantage of, they won't design for us. It costs hundreds of dollars to get a pattern on the market for us. And most designers are just like you and me. Not rich companies, but individuals who are willing to do the work to provide you with a quality product.
    I know of one designer that states that her patterns may not be made and sold. She has a very complete explanation on her website, and it has all been done at the insistence of her lawyer. Now, if you buy a pattern, make it up and sell the item with the pattern, that is fine. Or someone can buy a pattern and ask you to make x number of them. And you can charge for your time, etc.
    But she does have the legal right to restrict your ability to just buy one pattern and make lots for sale without a pattern for each one. It has to do with depriving the author of income from the sale of the pattern to the individual who has the end product but without buying the pattern, but paying for the product.
    Again, this gets complex.
    Do a lot more research with several different sites to get a more accurate picture.

    Pati, in Phx

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by nena
    Ok I have a question. I was trying to get my daughter into quilting. sent her a couple of sites to look at. I also saw a beautiful quilt someone had done ,and copy and pasted it in a email so she could see how beautiful it was ,and maybe get interested in quilting. I received and email telling me to be careful because I had did something wrong ( still don't know what) about infringement???? So now I just dont send anything much because I am afraid I will do something wrong? Go figure. It had to be from this board or one other
    because that is all I go on. If it was here please let me know what it was. Thanks
    I offered once to sell a pattern I had used at a reduced price. The designer actually got on the board and told me it was a copyright infringement and illegal. Looking back on it, it was a ridiculous claim. I bought the pattern and as long as I'm not making a profit (I wasn't--I was selling it for less than I'd paid for it), I can do whatever I want with it. It's a little like buying a gift for someone. Just because someone tells you you're doing something wrong doesn't mean that you are, and it doesn't mean they're right. Don't be intimidated. And realistically, is someone ACTUALLY going to come after you? Hardly. It would be too expensive, not to mention the hassle.

    I understand artists now coming after people for pirated DVDs and CDs. That's a totally different story. Those folks are pirating thousands, even tens of thousands, of items. In that case, it would make sense to go after a person. But for a one or two time offense? Come on! I'm not advocating knowingly infringing on someone's copyright, but no one should be afraid of innocently posting something out of the goodness of your heart.

  15. #65
    JJs
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    A friend and I were talking about this awhile ago. She has the magazine with the article in it and is flabbergasted at the whole thing. She is now rethinking even being in any quilt shows and/or making quilts that someone MIGHT buy. Her thinking is only use her own designs (like I already do).
    As far as I'm concerned some of these "designers" can take a flying leap - if they are so scared that somebody might make a quilt from their pattern (oh duh, isn't that what patterns are for??) and sell said quilt without paying them a royality then they are NOT in the pattern design business because they are creative and need an outlet, they are just greedy.
    If I want to make a quilt from someone else's design I'll buy the book or pattern to do so, but right about now, I can't see that happening.
    OTOH I'm not making quilts to sell - I make them for my own enjoyment and to GIVE to my kids, grandkids, great-grands etc.
    The one I did for consignment I "made up" on my own - I did not use a set pattern - I did use public domain blocks.
    I just checked the copyright information in the EQ7 book and I think I'll be using EQ exclusively for designing my own quilts.
    Unless you use one of the specifically copyrighted block disks (sold separately) then quilts you design are YOURS....

    I think it's disgusting that these so-called designers are stiffling people - I was amazed that my friend feels she can no longer use patterns that are 'out there' for download or to buy or whatever.

    The whole idea behind quilting was SHARING blocks - and people made their own quilts from those blocks...

    Some of the magazines and books lately have some gawd awful ugly quilts in them that I wouldn't 'copy' on a bet so think these designers are really reaching to come up with something 'new' they can lay claim to....

    (the EQ7 copyright info is on page 4 of the book)

    Another thing that blows me away is when some 'designer' copies a design from somebody else or uses an OLD public domain design and does something then claims the design - that's disgusting and they should be zapped by lightning LOL

  16. #66
    Senior Member sculpyfan's Avatar
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    Lazy Girl purses says you can't sell the items you make from her patterns. I know a lot of the purses for sale are her designs. I don't know if she has a legal right to ask it and doubt that the purse police would look you up if you did.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scissor Queen
    Quote Originally Posted by pam1966
    Quote Originally Posted by Scissor Queen
    Quote Originally Posted by knlsmith
    I don't know about patterns like that from magazines. All I know for sure is that each pattern has a copyright of some type, Ususally printed on the back or on their website, and the ones that i use you need permission to sell items made from the pattern.

    I see other people selling places without paying for the right to do so like I did.
    You actually don't need permission to sell things made from any pattern. No matter what the designers think or try to tell you.
    What about when it says on the pattern itself that you can't? I'm really curious about this.
    It doesn't matter what it says on the pattern. They do not have the right to say what you can or can't do with items you have made.

    This link has a lot of links to actual court cases and court rulings. http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/trademarks.shtml
    Very interesting! Thank you very much

  18. #68
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    As some one who designs patterns, you MUST have permission to sell items from books, patterns, etc. The patterns in the books are for your own personal use, not for resale. This goes for quilt guilds too, just because one person purchases the pattern, they cannot put the pattern in a newsletter without permission. Please, remember it's just like copying a DVD or CD, it's stealing. I DO make my payments from my designs and I need each sale.

  19. #69
    Power Poster Sadiemae's Avatar
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    Seems to me like everyone has differing opinions. I read the taberone article and according to that once the pattern is sold, the designer relinquishes rights to anything that is made from that pattern. They only retain the rights to the pattern being copied illegally which isn't wht is being discussed.

  20. #70
    Senior Member yellowsnow55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chele
    Let's be upstanding individuals and give credit where credit is due. Our creations are our intellectual property and are protected whether you believe it or not. Check the law. If you steal or "borrow" property and profit from it you may be confronted by the owner. In most cases all you have to do is ask permission and the owner is thrilled to share. How easy is that?

    I don't know where manners went, but I know we all know good manners. You wouldn't steal candy from your elderly neighbor and sell it to the neighborhood kids would you? Of course not. Let's show the quilting community we respect their contributions. We may be in their shoes some day.
    Thanks for that, could not have worded that so eloquently myself. Credit the designer and make sure you have permission.
    :thumbup:

  21. #71
    Senior Member yellowsnow55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virginia Smith
    A couple of years ago I had the opportunity to meet Carol Doak at a workshop. I had taken in one of my first quilts that was made entirely from her stars. I had given her credit on my label for the pattern designs and gave credit to myself for the quilt design, piecing and quilting. It was really a nice moment to see her smile and to receive her autograph and a very encouraging comment on my label. Whether this was necessary or not did not matter, it really felt like the right thing to do. I feel it also adds further documentation to the label.
    :thumbup: You are a nice person!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :thumbup:

  22. #72
    Senior Member yellowsnow55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vickig626
    Quote Originally Posted by pam1966
    Quote Originally Posted by Scissor Queen
    Quote Originally Posted by knlsmith
    I don't know about patterns like that from magazines. All I know for sure is that each pattern has a copyright of some type, Ususally printed on the back or on their website, and the ones that i use you need permission to sell items made from the pattern.

    I see other people selling places without paying for the right to do so like I did.
    You actually don't need permission to sell things made from any pattern. No matter what the designers think or try to tell you.
    What about when it says on the pattern itself that you can't? I'm really curious about this.
    I've run into this as well. The pattern actually says it's only for personal use and items made from pattern can't be sold, which I think is unfair. I don't buy these patterns if they say that.

    My quilt instructor said that if a pattern is modified 40%, you can call it your own and sell it as your own and the items made.
    Probably better of doing some research on this topic yourself. Modifying 40% sounds 100% wrong to me. :thumbdown:

  23. #73
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    Wow is this all fascinating and confusing! What I take from this conversation is this....If I decide I want to make quilted items from a purchased pattern and sell those items I will first go visit an attorney!! :wink:

  24. #74
    Power Poster Sadiemae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzsooz
    Wow is this all fascinating and confusing! What I take from this conversation is this....If I decide I want to make quilted items from a purchased pattern and sell those items I will first go visit an attorney!! :wink:
    Might be a good idea. It just gets more confusing doesn't it?

  25. #75
    Senior Member yellowsnow55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzsooz
    Wow is this all fascinating and confusing! What I take from this conversation is this....If I decide I want to make quilted items from a purchased pattern and sell those items I will first go visit an attorney!! :wink:
    You're lucky you can afford one of those :lol:

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