my main beef is having to ask permission to put the quilt in a home town/ribbon winning quilt show...give me abreak, gee whiz...get real.

I believe, that if someone wants to share photo's of their quilts and then say free pattern. That to me, means free. I am free to make that design and if I keep it, give it away or sell it is my business.
If the person with the quilt wants to have a copy write on it, then he or she should not be offering free pattern

I have asked permission twice from designer to use their patterns for humane society and got a Sure that's wonderful from them and a just send me a picture.
I sell belly bands now for dogs and I don't' see how they can say don't sell any from this pattern. Its only two strips of fabric. I figured it out for myself. I did buy a pattern for the girls but found ways it works better and changed it. Haven't sold any of those yet.
No one I know ever wants to pay what the quilts are worth. I even stopped making them for the humane society auction. When I had to bid on one of mine because there was no bids I said that's enough. No more.

I figured if I saw a pattern, liked it, but not the colors, chose my own colors, I am making my original quilt. On the other hand, I won't be showing or selling any quilts, or quilt patterns, so I'm not going to worry about it. If you really make a design, and nothing in it has EVER been used before, and you don't want anyone else to make , use, or sell your design, then don"t sell patterns for it. I feel if you sell it to me, that makes what I do with it mine.

Ditto here. I'm totally fed up with the whole thing.

In our group, if we find something we want to use for a group challenge, we just send each the address. Each person can make their own copy of the design. Then we each make our own quilt--no break of copyright as each prints off their own pattern, and makes their own quilt. These are for our own enjoyment and not for sale.

I can take a traditional pattern (one in public domain) and design a quilt setting using that pattern. I copyright MY instructions and MY setting and MY words. I do not have exclusive rights to the traditional public domain use of that particular block. I can only copyright MY version of that particular pattern. Personally, I always consider it a compliment if someone shows a quilt made from one of my designs. I do appreciate, if they use my pattern, to state that was where the design came from.
For over 40 years I have sketched blocks and settings on graph paper. I am sure that some are the same as others have done. In fact I have gone back in my sketch books and found the same block design, in a magazine or book. How many ways are there to draw lines on graph paper? If anyone else designs that way, why would they not have drawn the same lines?

This is exactly why I started this thread. I do the same thing. I do tweak the patterns quite a bit to make them my own. I don't just change the color, but it's the principal of the thing. I will probably never show a quilt or even sell one, but I think I should be able to do what I want with what I make

the thing that confuses me most about the issue of copyrights is the confusion.

the law itself isn't really all that confusing. it's all the differing opinions that muddy up the waters.

some pattern makers have successfully bullied buyers into believing they can dictate what's done with the finished product. nearly everything i've read from credible sources says that what you make using a pattern is yours to do with as you please.

get 5 lawyers in a room.
each lawyer is working for a different client.
each client has a vested interested in the answer to a question.
now ask the question.

you'll get at least 5 differing opinions - each based on the outcome desired by the clients.

a lawyer who makes his living filing cases on behalf of copyright holders will have armed himself with an arsenal of cases references and interpretations that support his arguments on behalf of his clients.

a lawyer who makes his living defending the accused will have his own quiver of legal arrows.

the judge will sift through all the legalize and gobbledygook and use tests and standards of reasonableness as the basis of his ruling.

seriously, most of the worry is unneccessary. the rules of thumb are so simple:

(1) if you didn't design it, don't say you did. give credit where it's due.
(2) if you didn't create and publish the pattern, don't pass out copies of it. tell your friends where they can get their own.
(3) don't pass out copies of pages from books or magazines. tell your friends where they can get their own.
(4) if you want to enter something into a show, check the rules of that show and follow them.
(5) put yourself in the shoes of the person trying to make an honest living from her talents.
(6) if you want to go professional, invest some time in research. it will be your most valuable tool.

remember The Golden Rule and act accordingly.

see? easy peezy. :-P

I think it should be required that pattern makers who do not wish products sold from their patterns MUST put their wishes on the pattern where it can be readily seen BEFORE purchase. Then we will not buy them. We also need to check all quilting books that are now coming out to be sure they don't have the same statements in them. If we don't purchase their products perhaps they will rethink the whole thing. My current library of quilting books have no such statements and there are plenty of patterns for me to choose from. I also make up a lot of my own patterns so I don't feel that I have to bow to their wishes.

Between you, me and the gatepost, it won't bother me one little bit if all the designers get in a major huff and run off pouting and taking their marbles (designs) with them..
If I never see another "designer" quilt for the rest of my lifetime it won't matter a whit - I have EQ and a few THOUSAND public domain blocks to play with and a whole mess of "quilts in MY head".
If your creativity is so seriously lacking that you cannot make a quilt without following someone else's design then you need to start small - you will be amazed at how many DIFFERENT quilts you can make with ONE BLOCK - just by changing the size, the sashing, the colors, the fabrics - and every one will look different and nary a 'designer' in sight to CLAIM YOUR QUILT...
Think about it...
And when the designers are whining about 'oh, we didn't mean for you to quit PAYING BIG BUCKS for our designs, we just wanted to CONTROL what you did after you already paid'...
bah humbug

Thanks PatriceJ:
This puts it in a nutshell. Like you said: Easy Peezy!!! So, most of the stuff we read is someone's opinion and not the law. This is the way I see it. Give credit where credit is due and follow the rules. I've got it. Read the small print. If the designer/creator wants to limit what you do with it, just don't buy it. Easy Peezy!!! I've got it! If you want to enter it in a competition, follow the rules. Easy Peezy! I've got it! Thanks for clearing up the muddy water. I'm pretty sure I finally got it. Sheeeeeewwwww!!! This has almost been an exhausting endeavor. I'm so glad I finally got it, I hope everyone else does too. It's my Ah Ha Moment. Oprah would be proud, lol.

I'm sure Patrice is proud of you, too! :lol:

If you finally got it give yourself a pat on the back for a job well done and lets move on.

Woo Hoo for the EQ programs for those of you that need it. I don't have one, but I really don't think I need one. All this happens in my head without a program, LOLOLOL!

I just finished reading a series about quilting and some of the quilt patterns we use today those people were making before the Civil War.

Okay here is my 2 cents worth. Ladies, we are designing patterns from GEOMETRY. Check out any geometry site. All our designs are on there in one form or another. Are we breaking laws there too? Second, do we need a site or is there a site that lists all the patterns that are copyrighted?

This is something I have wondered about. We've heard the expression, "there's nothing new under the sun." I'm fairly new to quilting and the only quilts are patterns I made myself, but I bet if someone researched it, there are probably patterns out there either just like them, or close enough that someone could yell copyright infringement. But the patterns came out of my head. What then? Sure, we should not copy the patterns and give them away. Nor should we mass produce them. Barring that, I don't see it as infringement.

I, also, agree with Conniequilts. I can understand not claiming it as an original design or copying the pattern to sell or distribute to others. However, the end result of the pattern is mine to do with as I wish since I paid for the pattern. The designer has no control of how many I make or what I do with them. Just my two cents.

Remember when patterns were published in mags like Ladies Home Journal for FREE???!!!!! And anybody could make it AND share with others???!!! Used to be quilting was all about sharing, comforting and making memeories as the ladies all got together, also used to be people would not accept things as "Oh well, what can you do about it?" And I do agree---don't buy their mag. and don't renew your subscription----plenty of info on the web!

Sorry. I have to disagree. Making patterns is this person's livelihood and the copyright is all that protects their income and rights to their own work. It would be like copying a book and sharing it with anyone. The author loses their right to sell the only thing they have - their intellectual property. Asking permission to use a pattern is not a big deal - it is just the right thing to do.

ME TOO

Except the only thing copyrighted is the pattern, not the quilt made from it, as shown in other examples on this topic.

http://www.womenfolk.com/quilting_hi...olitionist.htm

Ohhhhh shame shame shame - here are a couple patterns that I have seen COPIED by some of our famous quilt designers! BTW, by changing the colors, it is NOT an original......... but, when it comes down to it, do we REALLY care??? hmmmm

I worked in a law office for years. These are boilerplate statements created by lawyers to cover as many contingencies as possible. It is beyond my comprehension that McCalls or anybody else is sending spies out to quilt shows looking for someone who might have displayed one of their quilts without permission. It simply isn't feasible, and it would be terribly expensive. It's like pirating music from the internet. A song/quilt here and there does not a copyright violation make. But if someone is making money--say, a famous quilter--by displaying quilts from patterns in McCalls, then McCalls would probably want to go after that person for a piece of the action.

Ordinarily, I don't pay any attention to copyright statements unless I'm going to send a quilt off for auction at the Alzheimer's Art Quilt Initiative. AAQI demands it and wants a copy of the permission letter or email that I receive. Most people/companies are gracious in granting permission to use their designs, and in general, it's easy to find them so that I am able to ask. Sometimes I don't get an answer from the person, which I take to mean "no." But most of the time people are delighted that I like their design enough to ask, and gladly give their permission. My avatar is one of those cases. I found the design on a greeting card. The artist is in Germany and I waited several weeks before I heard from her, but she was as nice as could be when I did.

Some time ago I bought some cd's with old newspaper patterns and one cd had lots of old books of quilt patterns and a another cd had all the embroidery.
there are hundreds of designs on these cd's.

All the patterns are copyright free as these patterns start from 1800. I can take any of these blocks and draw them in EQ and make them whatever I wish. Most of of the blocks are blocks we know about anyway.

I told you guys to get EQ, hahhahahah...but no fooling, EQ is a fun program and it's not hard to do the blocks. How do you think the designers do it.

I will purchase books from my favorites...like Barbara Brackman or Judy Martin...Judy loves for you to sell you quilts...

Probably the copyright would have expired by then. They don't last forever. (why we have generic drugs)

Copyrights are expensive and have to be renewed. I doubt if the patterns are CR.

I agree with you. Thanks for putting your thoughts down so clearly.

I totally agree with this one. What I do after I have purchashed the pattern is my business. I would not copy and sell the pattern although some fabric shops do, but as far as the quilt goes unless you use the exact fabric, colors and stitching it is not a copy.

My thoughts exactly (and I believe I read that in a magazine too, just recently)!

I also doubt that most of the 'protected designs' could actually be CR. If they are in fact CR then somebody should challenge it.
100,000s of landscape painters paint trees using certain techniques. Have you ever heard of a copyrighted landscape picture?
Of course, everybody puts his/her own stamp, feel and artistic expression into the painted images.
Same with quilting.
Whoever sews simple geometric forms into quilts without duplicating a commercial design stitch by stitch, color by color should be perfectly safe.

If I wanted to sell a pattern that uses e.g. tesselated stars in a gradated color scheme I would be perfectly safe to do so even if this design is shown e. g. in the quilters cache where many old-fashioned designs are published with the remark "This is an original design ..... "

My foot! Most of their designs are all but original designs (It's OK, their site is marvelous.) It has been done for many decades by many thousand quilters. These socalled CR warnings are unenforcible, not at the least because the designs have no unique or new elements.

Same as Michelangelo painting angels. Everybody copied his angels to everybody's delight.

Once published , isn't a pattern in the public domain and therefore no infringement on a copyright. Any attorneys in the house to guide us?

I just wonder how many of these quilt patterns in the mags are really original from start to finish anyway. Maybe they are copying and using patterns from way back without permission themselves!
Quilting has been going on forever - new patterns cannot be that infinite! What an attitude they have anyway. Why bother to publish the pictures of the quilts with directions on how to make them if they are not to be given or sold? Just how many quilts do we each personally need in our homes, that's what I want to know.
I'm just disgusted that I had already reordered a couple of mags before this issue was brought up a while ago. Will not order again, believe me.

publication in any form is what creates the copyright ... regardless of whether or not it's registered with the feds.

designers cannot copyright blocks already in the public domain.

debate rages over whether they can copyright layouts they design using only blocks from the public domain.

there is no doubt, however, that they can copyright the patterns and instructions they write and illustrate showing us how to make those quilts.

We continue on with this debate, don't we? I personally think it's the dumbest move in years, because quilters no longer are free to share anything.

When our quilt group made a quilt that was published in one of the Fons & Porter magazines for display at our local county fair, I wrote to the magazine to get permission to do so. I was informed that we all had to be subscribers to this magazine, and that we could not sell this quilt top. We were not selling the quilt nor were we raffling it off to raise money. Quilt members of our group had to work on the quilt top, and we then drew one of our workers' names as the winner of the quilt.

Here's where I think this magazine was wrong. Who were they going to sue? We were an informal group of seniors who were given donated space in a local building. Our group was not a guild in the sense that we did not have dues or bylaws or other financial obligations. Was this magazine going to sue a county agency, one without any monies to begin with? How stupid was their response?

I immediately canceled my subscription, urging others to do the same. Here's my position. I can go to any library and copy that pattern for my personal use. The magazine itself purchased that pattern from the original designer. By displaying this magazine and the completed quilt, we were, in effect, helping to publicize that particular pattern (and the magazine too). What more could a designer ask?

I am saddened that the quilt community is so wrapped up in this copyright debate. What ever happened to "fair usage" as a concept? Do the quilt police think they can control the consumers to that degree? If so, I will no longer purchase any patterns, looking to use those in the Public Domain. :cry:

Where are these statements located in the magazines?

Why do you even worry about those lunitoons?

If and when they sue you (your club, your group, your whatever) they have to make a claim for DAMAGES. Don't settle. Let them prove that you have done damage to their commercial interests.

Have fun with them.

They can keep nice citizens in court for ever. Make it your entertainment project for your group to do the same to them. You don't need a lawyer. Just question their damage claim.

Sooner or later THEY will be thrown out of court.

Okay -- now here's another thought that I don't see mentioned. I worked with a woman that was teaching me web design. She was very well known in her area and in fact, does web pages for some of the people on TV. I eventually decided I didn't want to do it (boring), so I'll share this with you. The first thing she had me do was create my own web page. She had me add a copyright clause at the bottom. I questioned how that would work, that it costs $$ to get a copyright. She said "I know, but the person reading this may not know it's a worthless statement".......TAAADAAAAHHH.....I'm not worried about copyrights now. And yes, I WILL credit a magazine/designer, etc when I make something.

what are the names of the magazines in question?

Kandy

Not true at all. You don't have to pay to have a copyright. Once you create the work, then it is copyrighted (see #8 on the link below). Registering a copyright is what you're thinking of, and it is not necessary for the work to actually be copyrighted and protected by the law.

http://www.keytlaw.com/Copyrights/top10myths.htm