[QUOTE=Silver Needle;5132828]I am interested in making quilts for resale and a former legal secretary so copyright law was important for me to nail down. After extensive Internet research I have learned 2) it is infringement to sell a quilt made from a pattern without the creator's permission.

And you're dead wrong on this one. Silver Needle, I've been to your website and I've been in your shop. (I was born and raised in Ames.) You have a faaaabulous business. You are well-intentioned, and I know you take this stand because you have many pattern designers who sell patterns through your shop. But you're still wrong! There's a little law called "First Sale Doctrine" that applies to your false statement. Please see the following website for an explanation why your statement is false:
http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/...aftSites.shtml

You got exactly one right. I don't know where you got most of this but somebody has fed you a line of **.

This is another one where you're dead wrong. Puh-leeze read this website:
http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/...aftSites.shtml

This is another one where you're dead wrong. Puh-leeze read this website:
http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/...aftSites.shtml

I'm glad you posted Silver Needle, I hope this helps ease your worries! Life gets complicated unneccessarily when people take themselves too seriously, in this case it would be one or two pattern designers who invent silly restrictions. I skip buying from those pattern designers as well.

Cheryl--
Please recheck your facts.
Patterns are copyright protected. They cannot be copied and given away or sold.
Once you pay a designer for the pattern, the product that is made from that pattern is NOT copyright protected. You can make 9 billion of the same thing and do whatever you want with them--the designer cannot do a thing about it.
Utility items like clothes, quilts, etc are not eligible for copyright protection. What is protected are the written words that explain the process and any associated photographs/illustrations. Not the end product!
Read about it here:
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/

I'm sorry that it looks like we've all just piled on Cheryl, but that post must have stopped us dead in out tracks.
It's thinking like this by otherwise intelligent and well meaning people in the quilting world that perpetuate what the pattern companies want the average Jane to think....and to have them keep spending the bucks!

Oh My Goodness...

I agree with you! Changes the makeup of the board if we become afraid or concerned to ask a question in fear of being
bit.

this is actually a sign of the time...while in today's world quilter's are faster to make than ever, the quality is often lesser than what most shows require to be in a judge setting. The cost of making, shipping, insuring, etc also set the bar higher than it used to be. Groups are disbanding and taking most of the challenges with them, it is a lot of different factors these days!

It's forums like this that help though! I'm glad Silver Needle posted, it gave us the opportunity to bring the issue to light, and point out the false information out there.

LOL:thumbup:

it helps that there are those who try to stay informed of issues effecting quilters and copyright. i have several friends that are attorneys and a brother that is on his way to law school so i have a few people to ask questions of. i helps to be correctly informed and it is okay to say that you do not know something rather than giving incorrect information.
thanks for keeping this topic relevant as it applies to so many of us.

I'm just glad that my quilts aren't good enough to put in quilt shows. And I always give them away. I'm not going to keep all the quilts I make, that would be crazy! I read where you need to put the designer's name and the quilter's name on a tag on your quilt and then it's okay and I am going with that because I am still going to give my quilts away. I agree that you aren't suppose to make copies of the pattern and distribute them...I understand that completely, but the rest is just nuts!!!

I took my information from kathleenbissett.com/copyright%article.PDF. And http://www.quiltingbusiness.com/quil...ght.htm.,among others. I am only trying to do what's right and legal but that's pretty difficult to figure out. Also I do not own a shop in Ames. My business is longarm quilting, Silver Needle Stitching, LLC.

Yes, I realize you aren't in Ames... I was explaining that's where I'm from. :) I love Iowans!

I understand you're trying to do what's right. Kathleen Bissett is in business to sell her patterns. At least 3/4 of her copyright blather is false information. Surprise?

The biggest false statement she makes is where she tries to pull one over on you by saying a quilt made using her pattern is a "copy" of her pattern. Hooey! The quilt is the "end product" not a copy! She has NO CONTROL over the "end product". Kathleen's copyright page is so full of holes it could pass as swiss cheese. "First Sale Doctrine" is the key to the truth. A copyright protects original creative works. The copyright does not extend beyond the work protected. For example, a copyright of a new quilting pattern only protects the actual pattern; the copyright does not extend to items made from the pattern.

Tabberone created a wonderful database to help debunk the myths. Once you separate the myths from the truth it's very simple!
http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/...aftSites.shtml

the problem with spouting that everything Tabberone says/posts on their site as being the "gospel" trueth about the issues, is that you are then believing THEY say instead of actually doing the research for your self. Many artists/designers are fighting Tabberone and winning! They can limit what you do after the "first use" doctorine!

Hi! I'd love to learn more, could you share information about limiting the use of a pattern? I'm not sure what you mean by limiting what you do after the "first use" doctrine? A copyright protects original creative works. The copyright does not extend beyond the work protected. For example, a copyright of a new quilting pattern only protects the actual pattern; the copyright does not extend to items made from the pattern. Using the "copyright" as a way to limit the use of a pattern can't be done.

I read the First Sale Doctrine. It's available online for free at government websites. And I read Tabberone's site where she quotes the First Sale Doctrine, and she quotes it accurately. It's accurate information on Tabberone's website, since she literally takes you word for word through the First Sale Doctrine. It's not rocket science after all, it is on government websites for anyone to read.

I think you're talking about a "license", not a copyright. If a designer want to "license" a pattern, that is entirely different than a copyright. Licensing is an entirely different animal all it's own. Copyright is automatic and costs NOTHING when you publish a pattern. Licensing costs mega bucks to get done, but if a designer want to limit a quilter to making, say, 5 quilts then by all means spend your money! Can you imagine the price the pattern would have to be in order to recoup the cost of getting a license?

Karen Combs is known for her quilts of illusion. Perhaps she has a similar pattern. check her website.
sandy

I thought I'd add another thought about the difference between a License and a Copyright. When a pattern is published, unless there is a trademark and/or license registered with the government a designer should not print "for personal use only", "you may only use this pattern blah blah times if you plan to create a quilt for sale", "jump up and down on one foot while singing 'Froggy went-a courtin' before using this pattern" or any other such nonsense. The copyright does not extend beyond the work protected, I.e.: the item made from the pattern. Using the "copyright" as a way to limit the use of a pattern cannot be done... although a designer can huff and puff all she wants.

Many designers do this, yes. They look silly, and it's sign to me to buy someone else's pattern. The purchase of the pattern is not a legal "agreement" to abide by the blather printed on the package and the only way to get an "agreement" is to register this "agreement" with the courts before the pattern is printed. And once it's printed, it should contain the trademark symbol or licensing information clearly marked on the product. (When it's a fabric, this mark is placed on the selvage.)

To add a bit more. I have not signed an agreement to the terms stated on the pattern before I purchased it. Therefore, I am not bound to the stated terms. I also did not agree to the terms by purchasing the pattern. No where on the pattern does it state that by purchasing this pattern I agree to the limited use terms.

Go online to the library of congress, and look up copyright laws. Or best ask a lawyer! This is a legal issue and you should let the legal experts answer it.

This is in a pattern I bought-

"All rights reserved. No portion of this book may be stored in any retrieval system, or reproduced mechanically, electronically, or by any other means, including photocopying, without prior written permission from _________. This pattern is for personal, non commercial use of the retail customer only. Quilts made from this pattern are protected by Federal Copyright Law and may not be made for resale or commercial use in any form without prior written consent from ___________. Quilt classes based on this pattern must require each student to purchase their own book. It is illegal for quilt teachers to copy or rewrite these instructions in any way for distribution to students."

I've thought that this is excessive. While I will likely never get beyond beginner in my quilting, it seems absurd that someone can tell you what you can do with a quilt that you made. If that's the case, then this person owns, my fabric, time and hours on my machine.

I could never sell anything that I make. I'm certainly not good enough for that but really? And still more odd, since then, I have seen other patterns for sale that look like the pattern I bought with that statement in it.

Just for me now, I look at these things before I buy a pattern. What happens if you give the quilt to someone and they sell it? What a mess. I would think a designer would want the quilts made from their patterns be sold or given away to help create interest in their work. It seems beyond greedy and I won't buy this designer's patterns again.

This is a great place for information exchange. And sorry for such a long post.

Lonestar, it sounds like the designer of the product you purchased was burned at some point! I know of one quilt designer who was burned; she designed a quilt, wrote a pattern, and released it for sale. A couple of years later, she discovered a quilt shop was photocoping her written pattern and teaching a class using this pattern. The pattern was a required purchase to take the class, but the pattern was out of print. Did the shop owner contact the designer for permission to photocopy it, or to ask if the designer could reprint it (which the designer would have been more than happy to do)? No. The shop owner photocopied the pattern, sold it, and even claimed it was HER design. I think we can all agree that this was wrong.

It seems to me one of the biggest problems with copyright and quilting is that the legal language the designers have to use to prevent such situations scares the crap out of the rest of us!

This is false. You CAN make a copy of your pattern or book and use it, for example, as a template. You CAN make a copy for your own personal use.

This is also mumbo jumbo. You don't need permission to use the pattern for commercial use. And you can sell your finished product without any say so from the designer. A quilt made from a pattern is NOT protected by the designers copyright and the idea is laughable.

This is the only sentence that is true!

This is harassment of the consumer by a few copyright holders and I wish someone would simply file a lawsuit against 1 or 2 pattern designers to get them to stop the harassment. It's illegal, and it hurts the industry. Most pattern designers are sane people who understand it's harassment to include silly restrictions and rules.

I'm glad I learned not to believe everything I read. About half of what's written on that pattern is right. A good part of it is total garbage. Just because a designer has something printed on a pattern does not make it law. Copyright law does not extend beyond the pattern. Copyright law does not extend to any item made from the pattern. Copyright law is violated when shop owners or teachers make copies of somebody else's patterns and give them away or sell them.

The chances an actual quilt is copyrighted aren't very high. Any arrangement of simple geometric shapes isn't very likely to be copyright able. It's the pictures and instructions that are copyrighted.

Modred, thanks for sharing that with us.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that I abide by these rules (cough, cough). I make a quilt. On down the road, I die and my family has an auction. AND THEY SELL THE QUILT! Is this writer/designer going to track them down and send the family and the auctioneer to jail? Does this sound stupid? My point--------it's stupid.

Who in the federal government handles copyright issues? Don't laugh. Would it be possible to take this to the Supreme Court and get a written in stone ruling?

The courts already did this for us. Isn't that wonderful? I copied the following from Tabberone's post in another thread about copyright...

Tabberone said: "The US Supreme Court stated in 1879 that copyright protection in a pattern does not extend to a dress made from that copyrighted pattern. Then, in 1908, the US Supreme Court stated that a copyright owner cannot invoke restrictions on use of a copyrighted article by printing those restrictions on the article, it required a contract between the parties. A contract requires agreement between the parties before the transaction. And the federal courts have long maintained that the owner of a copyrighted article loses control over that particular copy once it has been sold or given away.

"No permission is needed to make and sell articles. Only ONE copy of a pattern is needed to make more than one article. And the copyright protection that is automatic under the law is the protection of ownership, not enforcement of the copyright. A copyright MUST be registered with the copyright office before any civil action can be initiated. The exclusive rights provided under copyright law do not become effective until after it is registered because if it cannot be enforced in court then there are no rights simply upon fixation.

"We have researched thousands of federal court cases. There are no federal court cases that have gone to trial over the use of a pattern to make and sell articles. The closest one was from the 1930s where a designer had copyrighted a drawing of a dress. The designer then tried to sue someone who making copies of the dress to sell. The federal court in New York rejected the claims saying that it was the drawing of the dress that was copyrighted, not the dress itself. And that is consistent with federal decisions on other copyright matters.
[end of quote]

Thank you Tabberone!

The important thing to remember in all this silliness is to show kindness (speaking mostly to myself here, it's so easy to get fed up after repeating myself a gazillion times and blast away, LOL) It's only a few pattern designers that need to be informed. The majority of pattern designers understand the truth. I've been harping on this for 15 years now... oh my gosh, has it been that long???

I think that you will be fine. These copyright laws are somewhat unclear for all of us but, if you found this design on the net or bought it then you have a right to do with it as you please. I know others disagree but once something is published then it can be used.
As for asking us instead of lawyers. we probably know more about quilt copyrights than they do.