Trading up a machine-typical dealer operating procedure?
 

I have never traded in a machine before with a dealer (as in bought a machine, then had a year whereupon I could trade up if I wanted, and have the full purchase price I paid for machine #1 be applied to machine #2).

I'm in a position that I might be considering doing this. But - I misunderstood the dealer. Yes, I can trade in and get credited the full amount I paid - but only against MSRP prices on machine #2 (not the sales price).

I wondered - is this how most trade up programs work? Do dealers ever bargain?

I bought a Juki Dx5 where the first one was replaced within a week (because the repair manager indicated he thought one of 2 issues was likely in the electronics and the dealer was instructed to give me a new machine and send the original back to Juki). The 2nd one is not stitching correctly, and is now with the dealer to be serviced/repaired. I'd actually like a refund, but they will not do that, they want to service the machine. I would think because of all the problems they would be a bit more flexible in all of this. We'll see. As it is the machine may be gone for weeks, as their typical service time is 4-6 weeks, but the salesperson I am working with is asking for it to be expedited as it is a brand new machine.

I'm hoping they figure out the issue and the machine works as it should. But I am skeptical, because it seems if something is wrong from the get go (on 2 separate machines no less) - it probably isn't ever going to work as it should.

Did you check for reviews of the problem with your model? Is this a typical issue? Have you contacted the manufacture directly?

You might want to consider selling your current machine (after repair) and then purchasing the new model at the discount price.

Most people love their Juki's and do not have an issue. I am going to say this is not a typical issue, though I can find quite a number references to tension issues, stitch problems etc in the comments on The Juki Girl blog (she does trainings for Juki) - though most people are having issue with their straight stitch machine.

I have sent off an email to Juki. Next step will be to call. I will also be discussing options further with the dealer (from my point of view).

I was just wondering if this is common practice with dealers? Trying to decide what my next step will be (thinking ahead). I'm not sure how easily I can sell a machine that is brand new when the first question asked will be - why are you selling? I would not lie, and I definitely would not buy a new machine that had problems from the get go with stitch quality.

yeah, I do think that is a typically procedure not only with sewing machines but also things like cars, etc. Only time there is a real deal (but no trade in) is when stores are at a quilt show and don't want to lug home all those machines.

My straight stitch only machines have no problems. They are 8 and 10 years old. I would not buy any machine but a straight stitch Juki.

Unfortunately, I have no experience or knowledge with the trade-up process to answer your question. But as a Juki owner, if I were having multiple issues, like you have, within the 1st year then I would definitely be on the phone with Juki headquarters (i think in Florida) pressing them until I had a satisfactory resolution.

I've had to call Juki and they were wonderful prompting my local dealer to adjust my machine (at no cost to me) and it was done within a few days vs weeks. Hopefully, their intervention will help you come to a reasonable solution.

BTW - it's my experience/opinion that the Juki DX models are completely different than the TL models - it's like comparing apples to oranges . While I love my TL2200qvp mini - I just couldn't find the love with the DX2000qvp when looking for a decorative/utility stitch companion machine.

Good luck!

I bought a pre-owned Pfaff from my dealer, never clicked with it traded it up for a new Bernina that was on sale and he gave me the full amount I paid towards my new machine that was on sale and with awesome incentives. Let me just say it was not a top of the line Bernina and he still gave me the machine at sale price and full price credit towards it.

Thank you for the different insights! I will be following up with a phone call to Juki. Though my dealer has agreed my machine is not stitching properly and has taken it in. But with a 2nd machine with problems out of the box - I have to say I really don't want this machine, having lost all confidence in this model (which yes - is totally different than the straight stitch only machines). Which is where I want Juki involved given the dealer will not refund and is saying I can trade up but only against MSRP on a new machine.

Being at the beginning of this process, I am thinking ahead as to what my next conversation with the dealer will be. I suspected more people would say what quiltingshorttimer said (common practice) - but was hoping to see (and experience) what mrsg730 said.

I am not looking to trade up because I want to. If my machine had worked properly, I would not be considering. What I'd really like is a refund at this point (don't even care what they find in the machine, my worry is like a car in a bad accident and "repaired", it is never the same after). In lieu of that, it would be acceptable to me for the dealer to allow me to put full purchase price toward another machine at the 2nd machines sales price. Why should I lose out on a sales price due to a machine that isn't working properly out of the box a 2nd time?

At any rate, appreciate knowing what others have experienced.

Sorry to hear you're having problems- that's so discouraging. I have a Juki but it's the straight stitch only one.

No dealer sells at MSRP. We always sell at the lowest price Juki, Bernina and HandiQuilter allows. We have given a complete refund if our customer doesn't like the machine, for any reason.

We have, however, had customers return a perfectly fine machine, just to find that the machine wasn't threaded correctly or the needle was in backwards. It's always a great idea to sit down with your educator and make sure the problem isn't user error.

So sorry to hear about the problems you're having with your Juki. I don't have one, but did want to comment on the length of time your dealer takes with repair. Is the 4-6 weeks usual? Do they repair in house or send it out? I could see the lengthy time if they send it out, so I'm wondering if there is a dealer in your area who repairs in house. (My dealer has a 5-10 day repair time repairing in house, and I've had tension issues repaired on the spot.)

I have sat with several people at the store. They are having the same problems as I, both they and I have gone over threading, bobbin winding, etc.

I am glad to hear that the dealer you are with is very customer service oriented. Hoping at the end of the day, mine proves to be such as this also.

Artsyone - my dealer has to send their machines out (unless it is something very minor, in which case they will fix in the store). This one is going out.

I actually have a sewing machine repair guy I much prefer, and turn around time is generally 7 to 10 days. I don't know if he is Juki certified though. Since this is a new machine, it needs to go through the dealer for warranty repair.

This is a very good point, and I would ask this of the dealer and the management at the dealership. I would ask it several times! Be a polite but squeaky wheel. And absolutely call the manufacturer and request help if you are still unhappy with your service.

I had problems with a Hoover carpet cleaner, went to the dealer 8 times in 12 months, it was never fixed to my satisfaction, and the dealer told me I was out of warranty and would have to pay. So I contacted Hoover corporate and explained my problem. Not only did they fix it asap, they extended my warranty another year and stripped that dealer of his dealership. (I thought that was a little extreme, but then I found out I was not the only unhappy customer, and the fix was stupid simple - the water bucket had a design flaw and they sent me a new bucket, problem solved. It was a recall that the dealer had ignored.)

when I had problems with my Juki, I was told by Juki that they let their local dealers do what they want.


The Babylock dealer told me I could trade in my one year old machine and get the full price I paid as a discount off the current sale price of the new machine.

It seems short-sighted for a dealer to not try to fix a problem as quickly and inexpensively as possible - espeically on a new machine.

Customers are blabbermouths - and a lot more likely to mention poor service than good.

Although sometimes people are embarrassed to admit when they get taken advantage of.

Touch wood, I have a Juki and not had one bit of bother, apart from operator error. I would be pushing for a full refund and you negotiate a deal against another machine.

What an unfortunate situation you:re in. It sounds like the dealer is more concerned with money than customer satisfaction. They should be doing more to earn your trust. Two flawed machines right out of the box is unacceptable and uncommon.

I would approach the owner (not a regular employee) face to face and ask him (her) and tell them you really wanted that machine and bought it twice. And twice you have had tension issues that they admit to and is it unreasonable to not want to risk a third failed attempt. Ask if they- in your shoes- wouldn’t be equally baffled and disappointed. Tell them you really want to buy from them, but a different machine with a store credit for the full amount to paid them originally. Try to ask them questions (calmly but directly) to help them want to work together toward a fair solution. Let them know you’ve contacted Juki corporate to report your trouble with the two machines. Say “will you honor the price you sold it to me for since you can’t get the machine to work right?” Be likeable, reasonable, keep it about the faulty machine, your unwillingness to make the same mistake three times, and about them honoring their deal. You have not gotten a fair deal. You’ve lost the use of it for repair time, you ve lost confidence in this model but you don’t also want to lose the business relationship. Appeal to their reasonableness with logic, not emotion. Let Juki corporate try to yank on them first.

Although I don't have a Juki, the dealer I go to, services the machines he sells, along with other machines. I go down once a year to have my Elna serviced, and he does me a huge service, because he gets it done in one day, since I travel 8 hours to get to him. Although, I do sometimes take 2 or 3 machines, he does get them done in 2 days. LOL He does a very thorough servicing.

Yes. I would press for a full refund. That's inexcusable! Maybe get the Better Business Bureau involved.

Is there a lemon law in your state - is it on vehicles only or sewing machines too. I would check.

Bearisgray - I do feel a bit embarrassed that I apparently didn't fully understand their trade up process (thought I did). That said, I have no problem talk, Talk!!! And that I will if the outcome isn't a reasonable one for me. Yelp, Yahoo, here, if there is a spot for reviews on their site, other sewing forums, sewing groups I am in, etc. I'm hoping we don't end up there, but if down the road that is where it sits, I will make very sure they know I will be very vocal about their customer service every where I can.

Zozee - thank you for the detailed suggestions. I will admit to being conflict adverse in the past. Still don't like it and struggle with figuring out the best way to handle something so that I am an assist in moving the conflict toward what I want (as opposed to alienating). I have already told this shop that I chose to drive 30 minutes to their shop as opposed to another of their shops which is located about 7 minutes from my house - because I appreciated how I was treated by them as I shopped for a machine (and didn't care for how the other shop treated me). So I will be sure to emphasize that again as well.

While I'd much rather have a full refund as quiltedsunshine suggests (and then I would sit for awhile deciding what other machine I might like as a back up), I am willing to purchase another machine from them under certain conditions. Under their current policy, they are willing to give me credit for the full price I paid. What I am Not willing to do is pay MSRP on the replacement machine as opposed to their advertised sales prices. That is the sticking point (because that is their policy - I have to spend 50% more on a machine than the original and I only receive full credit for what I paid on the 1st machine against MSRP on the 2nd one). I think I might have better luck getting them to come down off expecting me to pay MSRP on the 2nd one than getting them to offer me a full refund.

I'll have to make a list of various questions to ask them as you suggest, Zozee, along with your questions - this is great and so helpful to me.

I plan on visiting them today at lunch.

Ragamuffin - from what I can see, lemon law is for autos. Also, they are willing to "repair" the machine. But 2 new machines with issues - I'm not going to trust the machine for the long haul, do not want this machine. As this shop doesn't have any posted return policy (we will or we will not offer a refund under any circumstances) - I think that should be on the table.

Check with your State to see if they have a lemon law.....apply that argument to the second machine and demand a refund.Tell them that if they are not going to refund, you will be contacting the Attorney General Office and local media about not taking back a defective out of the box machine!
If this right out of the box issues, the dealer should take it back refund your money and apologize. They, in turn, need to send it back since it is new. They are loosing nothing by refunding your money on this machine since it is inferior and they will send it back to Juki. Then sell your first machine if it is fixed. I would also talk to Juki about your first machine and, of course, mention the second one as well. I would look at the comparable Janome machine. I have numerous Janome machines and have never had a single one in the shop. Best wishes on a quick resolve. BTW if you purchased your first machine on sale, then they should honor your purchase price on the second on sales as well. I'm sure you will have to pay for the difference. They are used to selling far below MSRP. All dealers do.

This is so true. I was having problems FMQ'ing with my 2200 QVP Mini. It turns out a good cleaning oiling, new needle and rethreading cured all ills.

I've heard many times that people who did have problems with their Juki's got help by calling the headquarters. I hope it works out well for you.

They said they were sending the 1st brand new Juki back new and giving me a new one to replace. I thought, well that sometimes happens, the 2nd one should be fine.

The dealer has my 2nd machine now, because they insisted it should go to the shop for warranty work. But I do not want the machine. I don't care that they are not charging me for work under warranty.

I am not being unreasonable by Not wanting them to try to fix the machine and going straight to a refund? It would have been one thing if something small went awry after many months of ownership. But not this. A refund would be my preference. I think that is where I will start my talks with them. 2nd defective machine out of the box deserves a refund. We can start over from that point.

We will see what happens!

I agree with you. One machine can be "off", but to have 2 machines unusable straight out of the box would make a reasonable person decide not to take that brand at all. Use your "broken record" skills when speaking to the vendor. Don't say "I would like a refund". Say "I need a full refund". Him: But blah blah. You: "I need a full refund". Him: But blah blah. You: "I need a full refund".

I did go by the dealer yesterday. They are saying still insisting no to a refund (which they have already said no to). However, they do seem to be willing to work with me to get me into a different machine (and not as MSRP). They were willing to let me go with the Pfaff 5.2 at the sales price (which I had played around on, curious about it). But sanity took hold of me, and I let them know that while a very lovely machine, it was more than I could do at this point. They then seem to want to direct me to what they want me to take. I was interested in looking at a BQ1350, because I felt on sale - that one would likely be the best fit for the features I am looking for. However, they only have the BQ950 and then the BQ2450 and up in the store. When I asked about the 1350 the other day, a sales person said they didn't have that one and that these were just coming out. The manager, however, told me that Brother directs which machines a dealer will get in their stores (and basically indicated they would not be getting that machine). I'm not buying that. I would think the Brother would want all machines in a store. Is she feeding me a line? Because basically she wanted me to go with the 950, even trade (said the 950 actually cost more than the DX5 but she'd do an even trade). I was not ready to make a that decision yesterday and told her so.

I did call Juki HQ yesterday, and got patched through to a technician. He was quite nice actually, though he has no ability to do anything having to do with refunds/returns. He asked which dealer I was working with, then said oh, they are usually a great dealer to work with. Asked more questions about my issues, did indicate that a 4 to 6 week wait on warranty work was not good, said he could send me a label to ship my machine directly to them for them to look at, no cost to me. I told him the machine was with the dealer, and I didn't know if they had already taken it to their center. He asked if I had pictures of the stitches, gave me his email address to send to. Also gave me a couple of other names up the ladder for complaints about my general unhappiness about the situation. I spoke with this gentleman before I went to the dealer.

The dealer said they were shipping the machine to Juki for Juki to go over it, they were not sending my machine to their local shop for the work. I did let the tech I spoke to at Juki know this, when I emailed him my stitch samples.

So this is on hold right now, until after Thanksgiving. I was not ready to make a snap decision on a machine the dealer was pushing me toward yesterday. I don't believe she was being straight with me about the models, I think she is considering where her best financial gain is and is going to push that direction as my only option. They are not willing to give me a refund right now. I have further up the chain at Juki to go yet. And I'm tired of feeling sick to my stomach over this whole thing.

Well, in my experience it is not unusual for a dealer to refuse to give a full refund. In other words, that is very typical. You have to decide very, very carefully, because once those dealers get your money, there's no going back.

At this point I'm unsure if I would trust anything this dealer tells you. Do you have a dollar amount you know you will be getting in trade? If so, check with some other dealers to see what you Can buy. Don't tell them what's going on, just ask about the machines you're interested in and see what pricing you can get. Maybe call Brother and ask if your dealer can get the BQ1350. Arm yourself with information first, then go and play hardball with the dealer.

This is why I refuse to buy a machine from a dealer. You can get a very nice mid-level machine with plenty of bells and whistles from Amazon, Home Depot, etc. and they will take it back for exchange or refund if you have problems with it. If I’m going to spend $500-$1,000 or more on a machine I expect it to work and if it’s defective I expect either my money back or a replacement- it’s unconscionable that they have your money and you are without a working machine. Even if it can be fixed, there is no excuse for you to be without a machine for weeks on end while that one is out being fixed since they have your money. I might go to Better Business Bureau or if your local news has a service where they try to help get disputes resolved I’d be tempted to go there as well.

Rob

I don't know how a manufacturer decides which machines a dealer will carry or if the dealer themselves decide, but I do know that a dealer can order ANY current model machine from the brands they carry.

Cari

This is the very thought that has gone through my mind - never again. I have only bought from a dealer one time prior, and that was a good 15 years ago. I did not have any issues, but of course that machine worked as it should.

After this comes to whatever resolution it comes to, I will thank this dealer for likely saving me money in the future as they have successfully insured that I will never buy from them or another dealer again. I will make sure she knows I will talk about this far and wide. The dealer will not care, but I will say it anyway, and I hope the store happens to be full of people that day.

To think, I almost bought this machine online, but as the person I had been dealing with at this shop was so pleasant, helpful and non-pushy, the machine was at a slightly lower price, and I found myself thinking that I should probably buy local to have dealer support should anything go wrong - well I went ahead and bought here. I would have gladly paid the extra now, because dealer support is but a laughable thought.

There may be other local dealers out there that would do the right thing in this instance (I believe there was one comment that indicated they they offer refunds if a person is not happy with their machine for any reason) - but I'll not go through this again.

Yes, I will look into the Better Business Bureau. I'll have to look into the news sources and see if one of them does that type of thing, where they help consumers out.

Personally, I would buy from a reputable dealer, one that services what they sell, they should also offer free classes to familiarize you with whatever machine you buy.

My friend traded in her Bernina(new) 830 which was out of warranty on a new Brother Dream machine. She got the full price she paid for the Bernina deducted from the Brother but still owed some for the Brother. She was happy with the trade.

Jordan Fabrics in Grants Pass, Oregon (has a lot of great videos on U tube) has a Juki. It sounds wonderful.

Onebyone - sounds like a good deal, I hear the Brother dream machine is a great machine!

Battle Axe - actually most people love their Juki's (straight stitch especially). The F600 gets rave reviews, and most like their DX series machines as well. I really like the DX5, lot of great features. But I somehow managed to get 2 in a row with issues out of the box. I don't know if they came from the same lot and there was something wrong in general with QA on that lot or what. But yes, in general most people are very happy with their Juki's.

And I should qualify my comment about never buying from a dealer. Because I would consider one IF I had an agreeable return policy in writing prior to buying (such that one sees from say, Sewing Machines Plus - 60 days to return). I think many people have great dealers to work with, and I'm not saying there can't be value there. But I would never again risk my $$ like this. I feel rather embarrassed that I didn't realize I was risking my $$. But onward and upward at this point, we'll see what happens.

That said, I think as rryder said, there are so many other machines out there mid-tier that can be had from Amazon and such that would refund money on a machine not working as it should out of the box.

My last two machines I bought from Amazon. I couldn't seem to bond with the first one so sent it back. No problem and free return. I ordered a different one and love it. I recently bought the Eversewn Sparrow 30 from Amazon.

Most of my machines have been purchased used, but my last two new machines were purchased from Amazon and Home Depot. Both machines are every bit as good as similar priced machines at the dealers and I knew that if I didn't like them I could return them for a full refund no questions asked at either Amazon or Home Depot-- that doesn't usually happen with dealers-- ya pays your money and then you're stuck, unless you have an unusually responsive dealer.

Rob

A couple of thoughts to your situation.

1) Your dealer should allow the discount price on the next machine with full credit for your original payment amount.

2) If your dealer would sell a machine to a "new" customer at that discounted price?? why "not" you?? A sale is a sale no matter. Does it matter if the sale is to keep a happy customer or sell to someone new to the shop. Honestly, they should be working with you better. Customer happiness is everything!

3) You are simply asking to be made whole. Not price gouge against a trade in from a defective machine. You should incur no additional cost except the price difference between models. You should not pay the inflated price.

I wish you the very best to get the machine you so deserve.

Thank you. Your points were my thoughts exactly. Didn't seem unreasonable.

This is how they normally work. That's why most events don't do trade ins, they are already offering a low price so they won't give you a trade in at the same time. Not all, some events do trade ins,