Backorders... pre-orders... I think most online fabric shops don't allow them but we do.

And as long as our customer is in the US, it's not a problem. It's not *that* awfully expensive to ship a second envelope with the backordered items.

But our issue is with international orders. We love our international customers and it is fun to send fabric to exotic destinations in places we will never see. And we want to give good service to our far-away customers. But today our brains are all tied in knots. Four of us have been discussing this puzzle and cannot figure it out so I'm asking for collective wisdom from the forum.

Suppose Jane places an order for four yards of "fabric A" that are in stock now, and four yards of "fabric B" that are not coming for another few months. We base our international shipping rates on the number of flat-rate envelopes that are needed to hold the order; each envelope can hold up to 8 yards. In Jane's case, all her fabric will fit in one envelope, so she has been charged for one envelope. But not all the fabric is here.

So the puzzle is how to get the fabric to Jane and keep shipping costs and other fees reasonable and fair.

- If we cut and set aside "fabric A" to wait until "fabric B" comes in, there are two choices. Either we charge for "A" now, or we don't. If we don't, it is essentially a fabric that is "on hold" for several months, unpaid. (Not good from the seller's perspective, as by the time "fabric B" comes in the customer's credit card could no longer be good, or she might change her mind about the yardage or cancel the item.)

- If we don't physically set aside "fabric A" then we'll probably wind up selling it before "fabric B" comes in. (Not good from the buyer's perspective.)

- If we send "fabric A" now (and charge for it) and then send "fabric B" later, we would have to charge a second round of shipping (not good for buyer) or send "fabric B" for free (not good for us).

- Space does not permit setting aside "fabric A" on the bolt for months.

Here are some of the ideas we have tossed around among ourselves and I'd really like to know what you think of the:

- We could just send what we have in stock and say, "Sorry, but we will just have to cancel the backordered fabric; please order again later when it is in stock."

- We could ask permission to charge for the "fabric A" now (plus the shipping), and then send everything together when "fabric B" comes in. (Since "fabric A" would already be cut, we wouldn't want to accept a cancellation on that item and that's why we'd be inclined to want to also have the shipping charges paid for too.)

- We could wait for a short period - say two weeks - just in case "fabric B" came in sooner.

Complicating issues: there could be several backordered fabrics with different arrival dates.

If we send in several shipments, customers might have to pay more in fees - or less in duty/taxes - depending on their individual country (and there's no way we could possibly keep up on this level of detail).

If we make several charges to the customer's credit card instead of just one, they might wind up paying extra fees (or not).

And... while our first choice would always be "Contact the customer and ask!", sometimes customers do not reply to e-mails or phone calls, and of course e-mail doesn't go through 100% of the time.

I'm trying to figure out a reasonable policy that works for both our customers and our business here. At the moment we're "over-thinking" trying to figure it out.

Wisdom, suggestions, different perspectives, and suggestions would all be appreciated! (And thank you already.)

Lie back, put a cold wet cloth on your forehead, sip a glass of wine, then look again at your orders and go quietly insane!!

All that lost me after all the "back orders". I can't see how you keep them all straight and I admire you for trying.

Maybe a policy of only one back ordered item per hold? :D:D:D

I agree that a glass of wine would be VERY nice right now but wouldn't I be setting a really bad example by drinking on company time?

:shock:

I would think that maybe for international orders no backorders. Maybe you could keep a email list to notify them when a backordered fabric comes becomes available. Maybe give them 7-10 days to order before making available to others. Although they would have to pay the postage twice they would have a chance to get the fabrics they want. It's seems like a no win situation for all. Hope you come up with a workable solution. Maybe you'll get some input from the international shoppers about how they feel it could best be handled. Good luck.

When I was working - our company shipped international - we charged full shipping first time all back orders went at half the cost - most were ok with that since it could be months in between shipments. If we knew it was coming in fairly soon we held the orders to make it a better deal for both parties. There is no easy answer - sorry

well I'm not international but...... one place I frequent sends an email to say part of my order is on back order, do I want to wait and send it all together, send what's in now and pay seperate shipping on the back order, or just cancel any part or all of the order. If I do not reply, they hold it till it's all in but that's never been more than a few days. Another place shows on my invoice what's on back order, then I get a surprise in the mail and at the bank! when the rest comes in, it has been 3-4 wks and of course I forgot about it.

I like this idea:

We could just send what we have in stock and say, "Sorry, but we will just have to cancel the backordered fabric; please order again later when it is in stock."

And maybe give just a little more explanation as to why it had to be done, don't write a book or anything just tell them, shipping internationally is more difficult etc etc.

If it were me, I wouldn't do back orders for international orders. And if they have pre-orders they can do it but it will be shipped and billed with a hold of two weeks when there is a large amount of pre-orders for that one order. But this would only be on the pre-cuts. if they want yardage. then they need to pay upfront for the yardage to be cut and the shipping will be when the two week period goes by from the first pre-order getting in. you can also send emails when the backorder or pre-order items get in. kinda like connecting threads does. hope this is clear as mud for you.

Ship what you have in stock, no back orders! You are making it too complicated. The banks certainly don't fret over charges. Notify customers when new fabric comes in. None of us are guaranteed a tomorrow. Just my opinion.

Hancocks of Paducah doesn't charge for shipping of back orders at all (only for the item itself). It's one of the reasons I like to deal with them, though it can be frustrating when things arrive in dribs and drabs, and I have been known to forget that something is on back order, and order it again!

I can only presume that they absorb the costs because ... what? They had it in their current catalogue and didn't have it in stock, ergo they regard it as their fault? They want my custom? They are willing to provide this service to keep my custom? I don't know what their thinking on this subject is, but whatever, it works for me.

I would suggest, just emailing the customer and advising them that only part of their order is available (if your website does not tell them) and seeing if they want to have it shipped as two shipments (and occuring two shipping charges) or if they wanted to wait for fabric A and hope that is it available when fabric B comes in.

Sometimes people are buying things to go together and wouldn't want them unless they had them together. I think as long and you communicate honestly with your customers they will understand.

I looked at their shipping charges. They state that for all international orders, they charge 30% of the order cost, with a minimum of $20. So if you ordered 8 yards of fabric at $8 / yard they will charge you $20 for shipping. We would only charge $14.50 (which just covers our costs including insurance).

They are charging $5.50 extra, and must be using that to cover the backorders. (If 2 out of 3 orders are all in-stock items and can be shipped in full, they are getting enough extra to take care of that 3rd order.)

I was going to say they can't order anything that is back order and tell them why, but I think Vicki W. has a point.

ok, answering from a customer side of view...if i ordered 2 different fabrics from anywhere and nothing came and nothing came i would not be a happy customer. if half of my order was shipped without me knowing what was happening...i would be very upset.
i guess what i'm trying to say is...
COMMUNICATION IS MANDITORY FOR GOOD CUSTOMER SERVICE! instead of asking us you should be asking the customer how they would like their order handled.
there have been times when i've ordered on line...waited 2-3 weeks contacted the store to hear...oh sorry one of the fabrics are on back order...so we are holding the order... REALLY!??? without telling me? well one of those fabrics i needed 2 weeks ago...the one on back order was not even one that mattered...but they did not bother contacting me, even sending a simple email so i could tell them that i needed the other fabrics. so i cancelled the whole order (over $300 order) and will not even visit the site on line. had they contacted me i could have told them the fabric i needed right away and made arrangements for the remainder of the order-since they chose to just set it aside with no correspondence i have no time for them... i did receive an email order confirmation a couple days after placing the order...so kept expecting it and stressing over it for over 2 weeks...wondering if the pony express was bringing it.
if you want to keep your international customers happy you need to have GREAT CUSTOMER SERVICE! WHICH MEANS COMMUNICATION!

If the policy is not explicitly set out, I think you should eat the shipping charge for the backordered fabric.

And then you should set up a policy that if part of an order needs to wait, then the customer can choose to split up the shipping, i.e., pay for shipping twice, or cancel the backorder. Kind of like Amazon tells us we can ship separately or keep it together.

Or you can charge more for shipping from now on.

We do contact our customers... but sometimes they don't reply. I posted the question here because, to try to get a reading on what most people think would be sensible, to formulate a reasonable plan for what to do when the customer does not reply back to us.

It's not a perfect world. Sometimes we e-mail, and the customer does not receive it (and we do not know this).

Sometimes the customer replies, and we don't receive their e-mail (and they do not know).

In our shopping cart, it does show the ETA for all backordered fabrics. So the customer should be aware of the stock status even before they decide to submit their order.

'Course... we can't *force* them to read what's on their screen... but that's a whole other issue! :?

You could follow Hancock's of Paducah's model which is charge full shipping with the initial package, bill the credit card for backordered items only when they have been shipped, and do not charge for additional shipping on backorders. Their international (Canada excluded) shipping rates, however, are figured as a percentage (30%) of the cost of the complete order, not a box size rate. They are also a much larger operation than you are. :lol:

We do eat the shipping charge for domestic shipments. We can't eat the shipping charge for international because we would lose more money than we took in on the backorders; just can't do that. We certainly *can* specify a policy on our site for international orders; I'm just struggling with the wording given that English might not be the international customer's first language, and we don't want to confuse our US customers who also place backorders/preorders.

Our shopping cart is not as sophisticated as what Amazon has. They're big and we are little. We can't prevent international customers from putting backordered items in their cart, because we don't even know they are international customers until they start the checkout process.

Perhaps the safest policy would be "First we will try to contact you and ask if you would like us to charge you now for all in-stock items (plus shipping)... and then charge for each backordered item as it comes in ... and then hold the order for shipping complete whenever the last item comes in. And then if we do not receive a reply within a week we will ship what we have and cancel all backorders."

And this is essentially what we already do.

Overthinking again... what if the customer responds two weeks later, berating us for sending a partial shipment, because she was on vacation and unable to receive e-mails?

(Yes, this has happened. We just cannot seem to keep everyone happy even though we really do try!)

Yes, they certainly are bigger, and I'm not envying them because their headaches are probably bigger than mine too. (Does that entitle them to a BIGGER bottle of wine?) :shock:

Their $20 minimum shipping cost isn't so customer-friendly to the international shopper who just wants a little bit of fabric, though. Hmmm...

As an online shop owner, I'd give the following advice to simplify your life. (take it or leave it)

8 yards in a flat rate envelope is about double what can comfortably fit in those without; a) violating USPS rules, b) costing you a ton of time trying to wrassle that much fabric into them, and c) risking damage to the fabric. A couple of suggestions:

1. There really is no competitive advantage to over-stuffing FRE's, especially when your orders come back as damaged. Cut your maximum yardage for FRE's down, your orders will pack up quicker and you can protect them better, eliminating damage returns and/or complaints.

2. Use 1st class International parcel for your smaller orders, up to 4 pounds (about 12 yards+). It's just as cost effective as FRE's but a lot easier to deal with, the customs papers are simpler and faster, and it takes the same transport as Priority mail does, so it gets there in about the same time. Of course, this may require that you change your cart shipping calculations which takes some setup work. You'll also have to buy your own containers.

Don't sell what you don't have in stock. That eliminates your problem with pre-orders and back-orders. With manufacturers canceling lines right and left nowadays, pre-orders are becoming more problematic, and backorders are always a problem, as you're discovering. If you oversell a fabric, i.e. you have 2 yards in stock and the customer orders three, contact them and ask them if they want the 2 or if they want to cancel. I use skype for international calls to customers, it's cheap and works well, but you do have to check and see what time it is where you're calling before you call.

FWIW... :mrgreen:

Good to have another shopowner's input, QKO.

I have an official USPS customer service rep stopping by tomorrow morning and I am ever so anxious to ask questions about the limations of FREs (flat-rate-envelopes). This past year we have had only two problems with our fat envelopes (both were problems on the receiving end - not damaged, just "postage due"). So for us, thus far, they are still working even when overstuffed.

I will ask the rep about the First Class International option.

Seems that being "fair" is the hardest thing to do. My thought - the one international response wasn't unhappy paying the $20 minimum shipping. A person who is buying US is still paying less than their home country and they will buy more in the future if happy. If part of the order was "backordered", I'd have the shipping people put a standard piece of paper in stating "part of order on backorder and will be shipped out ASAP". You might even be able to put a smidge of material or something in with the note for being patient. People, women in particular, like little surprises/gifts.

You will always get complaints - some just like to complain. :)

Noticed that...

sigh...

Great suggestion. I am international and if I backordered fabric I would expect to pay shipping (again) when that fabric arrived and was posted. I buy online when I want fabric that isn't available here in Australia and so I am prepared to pay whatever shipping costs to get it here safely to me.

Maybe I am weird, but I refuse to buy backordered/pre-orders on material. I just don't need it that bad! It kind of annoys me to be at an online fabric shop to put material into my shopping cart only to find out it is not in stock because it is a preorder....

So in your situation, I would say NO to international backorders. It's not only about the postage, but also about the order tracking time. And like someone else mentioned, the timing and possible cancellations by the manufacturer/distributor.

As a customer, if I placed an order and some items were in stock and some were pre-orders or back-orders, I would not expect the company to ship me everything for free or for only one shipping charge. If I had placed an order only for back-ordered or pre-ordered items, I would still pay shipping. Some sites give you the option to hold everything until all items are in and can be shipped together or pay for each shipment as it is ready. There is nothing wrong with that.

The way you do it is very nice, but I would never expect it. Whatever you decide, just make sure you clearly state this policy on the website.

I like the idea of sending the E mail with the choices and agree that the better you communicate the better things will go. Some international customers have little fabric choices and/or very expensive choices so the additional shipping may be acceptable.

Although we would like to send the entire order to keep the shipping costs down, sometimes that is not possible. Your order of 3 yards of xxx is not in stock, please let us know how you would like us to handle this order.

1: send what we have now and backorder the rest, however, please understand there will be additional shipping charges
2: cut what we have, hold for 10 days and if the rest is not here, we will send what we have and set up a backorder, there will be additional shipping charges for the second shipment
3. cut what we have, hold for 10 days if the rest is not here we will send what we have and there will be no backorder
4. cancel the entire order

If we don't hear from you we will assume you choose method three, please contact us if this is not to your wishes.

If the item(s) is(are) not received by us within the next 30 days the back order will be cancelled and you will be contacted by E Mail.

I would also include in the order that is sent, how the rest of the shipment was handled and refer to the E mail you sent earlier.

Ncsewer I like the way you have phrased it. And I think we can improve it a little bit still:

1: send what we have now and backorder the rest, however, please understand there will be additional shipping charges. There will also be room in the package for an additional five yards should you need more fabric by then.

How's that?

spoken like a true entrepreneur!! There will always be rough spots but if most people can work with this you'll do great.

I second this response. Communicate with your customer and ask their desire stating what you can do for them regarding their order being careful not to bankrupt your store as your customers value you as a supplier and want you to succeed.

Granted, my recent order was in the US, but I got an email that said (paraphrasing) - Your order for fabric B is back-ordered and will not be available until {date}. We generally send orders complete to save our customers on shipping charges. If you want to send fabric A on its own, please let us knwow and we can accommodate you.

I sent them an email back that I was OK to wait.

At my work, we do not charge for back-orders either but I think the charges in the first order might cover the extras later (not sure how that works).

Oh - as for the charge. Since you have a commitment from the customer to buy fabric A which is in stock - I would cut and hold that fabric - then charge for both when they are shipped.

As a customer, I would want to know what is going on. Unless your emails land in the customer's trash, an all bold subject line should get their attention. Something with BACK ORDER in the title.

RE Hancock's of Paducah... Given their location, I'm betting they prefer bourbon over wine. ;-)

I hate backorders! Not knowing when or if something is coming chaps my knickers! I would much rather receive an email telling me what was out of stock, and asking if I still wanted the remaining order shipped. Period. If they don't answer, just mail what you have with a note saying "sorry, out of stock, we tried to contact you."

I purchase from the US and one shop I purchase from gives the option at checkout to 1) "wait and send it all together", 2) "send what's available now, pay additional shipping on backorder", 3) "cancel any part or all of the order". I usually opt for 'wait' and have always paid when it is all available for shipping. They have always emailed me, told me what is on backorder, with an approximate time when it will be in stock and put the order on hold until complete.
Another shop I ordered from did not have the yardage in stock and send what they had left - without letting me know - just as well I over order. Would not have been a very happy camper if I needed 3 yards and they sent me only 2 1/2!!!
I have to agree with the comments that communication is the key.

perhaps if you insert an explanation of your shipping problems on your site so that the customer can be aware of it when ordering.

They can then make the decision of what would best suit them

Just a suggestion.......

As someone who frequently orders from the US I would suggest simply sending an email explaining the situation to the customer and ask for confirmation whether the part of the order that is available should be sent or held in case the back order is delayed or becomes unavailable. Advise that extra postage will apply, thereby giving the customer the option of cancelling or opting for a different fabric. If I have planned my fabrics it would be very frustrating to receive part of an order, only to discover that I was not going to receive the co-ordinating items. This happened to me once here in the UK, when one fabric was sent but the other was discontinued. I would have chosen different fabrics had I known in advance.

I agree! I'm very frustrated when ordering and I don't know what's happening. If I am an informed customer, I am not only happy about it, I continue my business with THAT company! I buy from ebay and Amazon a lot, and if they encounter a problem I'm happy to assist in a solution, even if it means I pay half of the 2nd item shipped. I have told my family repeatedly, that communication with a customer over any mishap is key to a long-term relationship, in life in general, but in today's market especially. ex: I bid on ebay for a used bedspread & was listed in great condition. When they got ready to box it up, they found a small hole in the corner & wouldn't ship it until they talked to me. Well it was the size of a dime and in a corner, so I knew I could fix it and had been looking for one of these for a while. I told them to send it, thanked them for the communication and saved them as a seller I look to first on the site! Sorry, but I do have strong opinions on this topic; most of my working career has had to do with shipping medical supplies (which are needed, not wanted), so many times we had to find a temporary solution to hold a patient while we solved a back-order problem.

One of the places I order from (and this is not international) has a block on their order form giving you a choice of: a. send what you have b.hold order till all can be shipped at once c. cancel order if all fabrics are not available. This works for me.

I remember a version of this question from earlier. Something about sending yardage in cut pieces to fit in the envelope. I would BE SURE to ask the customer WHEN THEY PLACE THEIR ORDER what their preference would be for shipping - as far as accepting pieces or a complete order. Make a decision as to how this situation would be handled if they DO NOT answer that question. Then write that in the shipping policy, and follow that policy.