Mid-Arm Quilting Machines: Advice?
11-21-2017, 11:31 AM
#1
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Coastal Alabama
Posts: 3
Mid-Arm Quilting Machines: Advice?
I'm considering buying a mid-arm quilting machine-- and there's so much to consider! I think I'd prefer a stand-up/frame set-up over a sit-down machine, but I still waver back and forth...
Does anyone have anything to say about sit-down vs. stand-up quilting for people who are completely new to FMQ? I get the impression that it varies from person to person as to which feels more comfortable, but are there any general pointers? The typical recommendation seems to be to test drive as many machines as possible, but that presents its own set of challenges, and it must take more than a few test drives to really get a feel for a machine, anyway.
The frame that keeps popping up in my research (and in bundle deals with machines in my price range) is the Grace SR2+, which looks like a great product for the price. The only problem I have with it is that it's a queen-size frame, whereas I'd love to have the option to make quilts to fit my king-size bed. (I'm a little unclear on the actual "quiltable area" with that frame, too. Is it 88"? 91"? I've seen different numbers quoted, sometimes on the same webpage.)
I've also seen some people say that it might be possible to quilt part of the sandwich, pause to shift the quilt sandwich over/reload it, then pick up and continue quilting the part you couldn't reach before. I'm curious if if anyone has actually done this with success. Based on how the quilt is loaded into the frame, I'm not sure it would work. And if it is possible, do you still enjoy the benefit of not having to pin- or spray-baste the quilt sandwich? (Or does the necessity of shifting everything over require some sort of basting?)
One good thing about the sit-down machines is that you're not limited by the size of the frame-- only by how big of a quilt you can maneuver through the harp of the machine. Plus, there's no massive frame eating up all your room.
Then there's the issue of stitch regulators (yay or nay)...
I've been reading and watching videos and reading some more, but I'm going around in circles with pros and cons.
I appreciate any in-put while I continue to mull it over!
Does anyone have anything to say about sit-down vs. stand-up quilting for people who are completely new to FMQ? I get the impression that it varies from person to person as to which feels more comfortable, but are there any general pointers? The typical recommendation seems to be to test drive as many machines as possible, but that presents its own set of challenges, and it must take more than a few test drives to really get a feel for a machine, anyway.
The frame that keeps popping up in my research (and in bundle deals with machines in my price range) is the Grace SR2+, which looks like a great product for the price. The only problem I have with it is that it's a queen-size frame, whereas I'd love to have the option to make quilts to fit my king-size bed. (I'm a little unclear on the actual "quiltable area" with that frame, too. Is it 88"? 91"? I've seen different numbers quoted, sometimes on the same webpage.)
I've also seen some people say that it might be possible to quilt part of the sandwich, pause to shift the quilt sandwich over/reload it, then pick up and continue quilting the part you couldn't reach before. I'm curious if if anyone has actually done this with success. Based on how the quilt is loaded into the frame, I'm not sure it would work. And if it is possible, do you still enjoy the benefit of not having to pin- or spray-baste the quilt sandwich? (Or does the necessity of shifting everything over require some sort of basting?)
One good thing about the sit-down machines is that you're not limited by the size of the frame-- only by how big of a quilt you can maneuver through the harp of the machine. Plus, there's no massive frame eating up all your room.
Then there's the issue of stitch regulators (yay or nay)...
I've been reading and watching videos and reading some more, but I'm going around in circles with pros and cons.
I appreciate any in-put while I continue to mull it over!
11-21-2017, 11:58 AM
#2
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 284
I'll share my experience. I bought a sit-down (Handiquilter Sweet 16) in April and I really regret not going for the long-arm instead. I had done a lot of practice on my domestic so I was comfortable moving the quilt so I didn't buy a stitch regulator. Yes, there's plenty of room to maneuver the quilt, but there's a big difference moving a fat quarter around and moving a full quilt. Even having the entire quilt on the table so there's no drag, I found it didn't move as easily as the smaller quilt sandwiches I practiced on. Also there's the constant stopping to move my hands, so I'm quilting about a 6-8 inch space before having to stop. I recently rented time on a long-arm and I loved it. I did just a simple loops and swirls pattern, and I finished a 70x70 quilt top in about an hour and a half. So now I'm trying to sell my sit-down so I can upgrade to a long-arm.
11-21-2017, 12:28 PM
#3
Super Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Hartford, Mo
Posts: 5,783
Have you talked to the Grace Frame people?? I thought extensions were available for their LA to make to king size. I have the old hand quilting machine from them and they were very helpful in getting us the info to put it together again. Ebay carries great prices for their machines and frames , but I am still looking and debating the cost when I am 75 years old. Gammill prices are too pricey for me. The company based in Cedar Rapids that demonstrates at the Iowa State Fair Seems to be a good ole work horse. I think its like the kind of automobile one tends to favor one over another...its the one that appeals to you. I will feel good about a LA, then look at the sticker price and go into sticker shock.
11-21-2017, 12:35 PM
#4
Power Poster
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 11,276
I purchased my long arm before sit downs were available. Having said that, I personally found moving the pencil (long arm) more intuitive than moving the paper (domestic/sit down), so it worked out. Sorry. I would spend a couple days at a national show & try all the machines several times.
My first longarm did not have a working stitch regulator and I became pretty adept at moving the machine at a consistent rate. My current machine does have a regulator and I love it, but when doing really dense quilting I turn it off. How are you at no stitch regulation when FMQing on your domestic?
The website says 88", so I would assume that. You loose at several inches on each side to accomodate the sled that the machine rides on and you have to clamp the sides. I guess I would go with the narrower measurement. If you can get 91", consider the extra 3" a bonus.
A huge plus for me with the stand up is that you don't have to prepare your quilt sandwich on the table (or worse the floor). With a sit down, you do.
The one thing I didn't consider with my first longarm was the frame. Looking at the Grace SR2+, you should be aware that it doesn't have a dead bar. What this means is that as you advance the quilt, you will also need to raise the back roller to accomodate the growing completed quilt. With a shorter arm you will need to do this with every advance. You will need to get to both sides of the frame, so count on at least 2 feet of floor space on both sides of the frame. I didn't know this and my space available made it very difficult to get to one side of the frame. New one has a dead bar!
As far as doing a quilt larger than the frame. I've only done one, and I quilted the center then loaded and quilted the sides, then joined them using the QAYG technique with a narrow sashing strip.
Hopefully someone will chime in with their experience with a different technique.
My first longarm did not have a working stitch regulator and I became pretty adept at moving the machine at a consistent rate. My current machine does have a regulator and I love it, but when doing really dense quilting I turn it off. How are you at no stitch regulation when FMQing on your domestic?
The website says 88", so I would assume that. You loose at several inches on each side to accomodate the sled that the machine rides on and you have to clamp the sides. I guess I would go with the narrower measurement. If you can get 91", consider the extra 3" a bonus.
A huge plus for me with the stand up is that you don't have to prepare your quilt sandwich on the table (or worse the floor). With a sit down, you do.
The one thing I didn't consider with my first longarm was the frame. Looking at the Grace SR2+, you should be aware that it doesn't have a dead bar. What this means is that as you advance the quilt, you will also need to raise the back roller to accomodate the growing completed quilt. With a shorter arm you will need to do this with every advance. You will need to get to both sides of the frame, so count on at least 2 feet of floor space on both sides of the frame. I didn't know this and my space available made it very difficult to get to one side of the frame. New one has a dead bar!
As far as doing a quilt larger than the frame. I've only done one, and I quilted the center then loaded and quilted the sides, then joined them using the QAYG technique with a narrow sashing strip.
Hopefully someone will chime in with their experience with a different technique.
11-21-2017, 12:43 PM
#6
Super Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Knot Merrill, Southern Indiana
Posts: 5,781
Yes, yes, yes to "get yourself to a large show and test drive as many machines as possible." AQS Daytona show is in February ... can you make that show? Honestly, I can't say enough about how important this is.
My experience: I did go to large shows and test drove many framed and sit down machines. I fell in love with the Innova machine, but having zero experience on a framed machine I couldn't justify the price not knowing if I would be good at it and if I would like it long-term. So I bought a used machine at a very reasonable price and I am now learning on that. In the mean time, I also bought a new sit down machine - and I certainly see me using both log-term. At this point, if I ONLY use the frame to baste large quilts I can still justify the expense of the framed machine.
Space is a consideration to the frame set up. If you don't have the space, stop looking. I made the mistake of setting my frame up at a remote location and I didn't use it enough. I've since moved and now my frame is upstairs. I am still in the process of getting my sewing room set up, but I hope to have everything operational in a few weeks.
Of course basting is an issue with the sit-down machines. I loathe basting which is the main reason I went shopping for a framed long-arm.
With regard to choosing a frame before you choose a machine, you might want to reconsider. Most of the machine companies will prefer that you use the frame they sell, and not all machines will work with all frames. I would concentrate on the machine first, then if there is a choice of frames for that machine and one of them is the Grace, then go for it. That is not to say the frame is not important, there are some frame features that buyers will consider a must (ie dead bar, lift system, etc). But you want to make sure the machine and frame work well together AND your dealer will still support the machine if you don't buy their frame. You don't want to have a problem and have the machine dealer blame the frame dealer, and visa-versa.
But again, get yourself to a large show (or many dealers) and test drive as many machines as you can. Keep a list of things you like and dislike, keep a list of features you have to have and could live without, keep a list of prices and dealer locations (it may or may not be important).
One last thing, after you have a list of machines and frames you like and dislike, shop the used machines. Often you can find a machine with more bells and whistles than you thought you could afford in a used machine.
My experience: I did go to large shows and test drove many framed and sit down machines. I fell in love with the Innova machine, but having zero experience on a framed machine I couldn't justify the price not knowing if I would be good at it and if I would like it long-term. So I bought a used machine at a very reasonable price and I am now learning on that. In the mean time, I also bought a new sit down machine - and I certainly see me using both log-term. At this point, if I ONLY use the frame to baste large quilts I can still justify the expense of the framed machine.
Space is a consideration to the frame set up. If you don't have the space, stop looking. I made the mistake of setting my frame up at a remote location and I didn't use it enough. I've since moved and now my frame is upstairs. I am still in the process of getting my sewing room set up, but I hope to have everything operational in a few weeks.
Of course basting is an issue with the sit-down machines. I loathe basting which is the main reason I went shopping for a framed long-arm.
With regard to choosing a frame before you choose a machine, you might want to reconsider. Most of the machine companies will prefer that you use the frame they sell, and not all machines will work with all frames. I would concentrate on the machine first, then if there is a choice of frames for that machine and one of them is the Grace, then go for it. That is not to say the frame is not important, there are some frame features that buyers will consider a must (ie dead bar, lift system, etc). But you want to make sure the machine and frame work well together AND your dealer will still support the machine if you don't buy their frame. You don't want to have a problem and have the machine dealer blame the frame dealer, and visa-versa.
But again, get yourself to a large show (or many dealers) and test drive as many machines as you can. Keep a list of things you like and dislike, keep a list of features you have to have and could live without, keep a list of prices and dealer locations (it may or may not be important).
One last thing, after you have a list of machines and frames you like and dislike, shop the used machines. Often you can find a machine with more bells and whistles than you thought you could afford in a used machine.
11-21-2017, 01:00 PM
#7
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Central Pennsylvania
Posts: 109
I too prefer the stand up machines ....it eliminates the "sandwiching" process. It would be beneficial to purchase the largest throat space possible, it makes quilting on-point blocks between the bars in one setting, and when using pantographs, it broadens the scope of designs that are workable with a larger area. Good luck with your decision - happy quilting!
11-21-2017, 08:07 PM
#8
Power Poster
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Western Wisconsin
Posts: 12,930
So you are completely new to FMQ?
From what I have observed, most people prefer a frame setup to a sitdown. For those who opt for a sitdown machine, it's often because (1) they don't have the space for a frame, (2) they have physical limitations that make standing at a frame uncomfortable, and/or (3) they have already done a lot of FMQ on their domestic machine and want to stay with that method. Just in general, most people find it easier to move the machine (like a pencil on paper) than to move the quilt (moving the paper under the pencil). There are always exceptions, but if you were basing a choice solely on probabilities the probability is that you would prefer a frame setup.
Do you have enough space for a frame? That is most often the limiting factor. The space a frame takes up is often underestimated. I have a 10' frame, which equates to 120". I can easily quilt a 100" wide quilt, not quite so easily a 105" quilt. I could maybe do a 110" quilt if I am willing to use just one side of the frame for changing the bobbin, although that makes it pretty difficult to put side tensioners on the quilt. It is possible to do part of a quilt and then reload to do the borders (or the bottom half); however, it's enough extra work that quilters do not want to do this unless they have no other choice. I personally would not consider 88" to be able to comfortably handle a queen-size quilt unless the quilt has a fairly small drop on the sides. See this website that gives both mattress top dimensions and typical quilt sizes for specific mattresses:
https://www.quiltingcompany.com/sugg...hm-welcome-new
In terms of a frame, you need to be realistic about how much space it takes up. You need to be able to get around at least one side of the frame (and it's better to be able to walk around either side). In my lithe days, I might have been able to get away with 2' on a side. Now 3' is much better, and 4' would be paradise. In terms of width, my 10' frame really requires a minimum of 14'. People also often underestimate the depth of the frame. My frame is about 40" deep without the belly bar extended, an additional 14" with the belly bar up. Aside from the machine depth, you need a minimum of 3' to move around in front of the frame, and an additional minimum of 3' if you want to be able to do pantographs from the back of the machine. Minimum space for my 10' frame is about 14' x 12' to be able to comfortably access everything, and that is a little on the claustrophobic side. A bigger space is always going to be better.
If at all possible, you want to buy the machine and frame together. As a beginner, there are many mistakes you can make if you don't do this. Plus, it's just easier to know the machine and frame are compatible from the get-go. Saves a lot of time and anguish.
What is your budget? The midarm setup I have (Voyager 17 with Hinterberg frame) can often be purchased used for $2,500 to $3,500. While not perfect (the Innova is my dream machine), it fulfills all my basic needs and is a good starter setup. Have you checked out the Block Rockit? It gets very good reviews, and I'm sure there are some other entry-level setups now that don't cost an arm and a leg. Depending on budget, you may want to purchase used as you can often get considerably more for your money that way.
Regarding stitch regulators, some are outstanding (such as Innova) but others leave much to be desired (such as my Voyager regulator). If you can't get a really good stitch regulator, then my advice is to not use one. In my opinion, this is not a make-or-break consideration whereas space really is a make-or-break.
Edit: Here is a link to the Block Rockit:
http://www.kathyquilts.com/blockrockit/
From what I have observed, most people prefer a frame setup to a sitdown. For those who opt for a sitdown machine, it's often because (1) they don't have the space for a frame, (2) they have physical limitations that make standing at a frame uncomfortable, and/or (3) they have already done a lot of FMQ on their domestic machine and want to stay with that method. Just in general, most people find it easier to move the machine (like a pencil on paper) than to move the quilt (moving the paper under the pencil). There are always exceptions, but if you were basing a choice solely on probabilities the probability is that you would prefer a frame setup.
Do you have enough space for a frame? That is most often the limiting factor. The space a frame takes up is often underestimated. I have a 10' frame, which equates to 120". I can easily quilt a 100" wide quilt, not quite so easily a 105" quilt. I could maybe do a 110" quilt if I am willing to use just one side of the frame for changing the bobbin, although that makes it pretty difficult to put side tensioners on the quilt. It is possible to do part of a quilt and then reload to do the borders (or the bottom half); however, it's enough extra work that quilters do not want to do this unless they have no other choice. I personally would not consider 88" to be able to comfortably handle a queen-size quilt unless the quilt has a fairly small drop on the sides. See this website that gives both mattress top dimensions and typical quilt sizes for specific mattresses:
https://www.quiltingcompany.com/sugg...hm-welcome-new
In terms of a frame, you need to be realistic about how much space it takes up. You need to be able to get around at least one side of the frame (and it's better to be able to walk around either side). In my lithe days, I might have been able to get away with 2' on a side. Now 3' is much better, and 4' would be paradise. In terms of width, my 10' frame really requires a minimum of 14'. People also often underestimate the depth of the frame. My frame is about 40" deep without the belly bar extended, an additional 14" with the belly bar up. Aside from the machine depth, you need a minimum of 3' to move around in front of the frame, and an additional minimum of 3' if you want to be able to do pantographs from the back of the machine. Minimum space for my 10' frame is about 14' x 12' to be able to comfortably access everything, and that is a little on the claustrophobic side. A bigger space is always going to be better.
If at all possible, you want to buy the machine and frame together. As a beginner, there are many mistakes you can make if you don't do this. Plus, it's just easier to know the machine and frame are compatible from the get-go. Saves a lot of time and anguish.
What is your budget? The midarm setup I have (Voyager 17 with Hinterberg frame) can often be purchased used for $2,500 to $3,500. While not perfect (the Innova is my dream machine), it fulfills all my basic needs and is a good starter setup. Have you checked out the Block Rockit? It gets very good reviews, and I'm sure there are some other entry-level setups now that don't cost an arm and a leg. Depending on budget, you may want to purchase used as you can often get considerably more for your money that way.
Regarding stitch regulators, some are outstanding (such as Innova) but others leave much to be desired (such as my Voyager regulator). If you can't get a really good stitch regulator, then my advice is to not use one. In my opinion, this is not a make-or-break consideration whereas space really is a make-or-break.
Edit: Here is a link to the Block Rockit:
http://www.kathyquilts.com/blockrockit/
Last edited by Prism99; 11-21-2017 at 08:26 PM.
11-21-2017, 08:19 PM
#9
Super Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: kansas
Posts: 6,407
I have a used Gammill, 14' frame, and SR. I work in my basement rec room. I agree with the others, that the "stand up" machine (although I quilted today for about 5 1/2 hrs and sat on a drafting stool for most of that)is what I recommend--no sandwiching (which I hated), and it doesn't kill my shoulders and neck like FMQ on my DSM did. I love it! I quilt occasionally for others, but about half of the quilts I do are charity, family or mine. I suggest you go to the LongArm University website and check out what Cindy has to say about choosing a machine--and definitely consider a used machine if cost is a big factor--the Innova, Gammill, Nolting, APQS are all made for industrial use and last forever. Plus all can be retrofitted with a computer guided system if that is something you desire in the future.
11-22-2017, 12:14 AM
#10
Super Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Southern California
Posts: 6,254
Here is an copy of my answer to a similar post that I posted yesterday, as for stitch regulator sit down nay unless its a bernina, yay if its a long arm. I find if the stitch regulator is not built into the machine it does create a choppy look when changing the speed of you hands. I have used both without as well but I was in a similar situation about 3 months ago and made my choice after about a year of contemplationg below is my respose to sitdown vs stand up
I never had a sit down but did use my DSM for quite some years to practice and had several classes using sit down long arms so it was a tough decision for me to chose between a sit down and standing long arm. Several of the reasons I chose standing longarm you can work both standing and sitting, you can do pantographs, no basting prior to quilting, ability to add computer at future date if wanted. I have had my HQ Avante about 2 months and thought it would be a huge learning curve since i was used to sit down but I find the muscle memory is the same. I haven't had any issues with designs I was previously comfortable with. I do find attaching the quilt tedious but I am currently looking to purchase an add on to make attaching quilts quicker and less stress on my back ( basting is hard on my back so I see this as a better solution to sit down basting). I do have a saddle stool and sit in front and use mostly my microhandles and am waiting to purchase the precise pantograph so I can sit in the back to do pantographs. I really enjoy practicing on my longarm and don't regret my purchase. I did choose my model because I adore my dealer and it is the brand he sells and since I have't had any issues with him I haven't strayed, but there are lots of wonderful brands out there.My dealer has been around a long time so don't see them closing as so many quilt shops have. I have a quilt shop I love but dealer support is super important and I worry about her being in business 10 years from now since most of my quilt shops tend to be owned by older ladies and they all keep retiring and closing down. The pros of the sit down to me is the comfort level and you don't have to look under machine to check tension, it takes up a lot less space, there are not as many components to be concerned with, less accessories to buy(ruler base, microhandles, pantograph supplies, channel locks, batting hammock), less cleaning( you have to clean frame and track to keep smooth, sit downs cost a lot less money overall compared to many longarms. I got a good deal on mine because they came out with a new model so mine was discounted a lot for this reason. Pros for long arm you can both stand and sit giving you multiple positions to get comfortable, no basting, can be a lot faster to get quilts done. I feel its less stress on shoulders and back than moving quilt around. Have more options for doing quilts other than just freehand. Both are great IMHO and if I had space and money I would own both.
I never had a sit down but did use my DSM for quite some years to practice and had several classes using sit down long arms so it was a tough decision for me to chose between a sit down and standing long arm. Several of the reasons I chose standing longarm you can work both standing and sitting, you can do pantographs, no basting prior to quilting, ability to add computer at future date if wanted. I have had my HQ Avante about 2 months and thought it would be a huge learning curve since i was used to sit down but I find the muscle memory is the same. I haven't had any issues with designs I was previously comfortable with. I do find attaching the quilt tedious but I am currently looking to purchase an add on to make attaching quilts quicker and less stress on my back ( basting is hard on my back so I see this as a better solution to sit down basting). I do have a saddle stool and sit in front and use mostly my microhandles and am waiting to purchase the precise pantograph so I can sit in the back to do pantographs. I really enjoy practicing on my longarm and don't regret my purchase. I did choose my model because I adore my dealer and it is the brand he sells and since I have't had any issues with him I haven't strayed, but there are lots of wonderful brands out there.My dealer has been around a long time so don't see them closing as so many quilt shops have. I have a quilt shop I love but dealer support is super important and I worry about her being in business 10 years from now since most of my quilt shops tend to be owned by older ladies and they all keep retiring and closing down. The pros of the sit down to me is the comfort level and you don't have to look under machine to check tension, it takes up a lot less space, there are not as many components to be concerned with, less accessories to buy(ruler base, microhandles, pantograph supplies, channel locks, batting hammock), less cleaning( you have to clean frame and track to keep smooth, sit downs cost a lot less money overall compared to many longarms. I got a good deal on mine because they came out with a new model so mine was discounted a lot for this reason. Pros for long arm you can both stand and sit giving you multiple positions to get comfortable, no basting, can be a lot faster to get quilts done. I feel its less stress on shoulders and back than moving quilt around. Have more options for doing quilts other than just freehand. Both are great IMHO and if I had space and money I would own both.
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