How old before it's vintage?
 

Hi, all! I was just given a Swedish-made Viking/Husqvarna 210 Sew Easy. I believe it's about 20 years old, hence the title! The machine is clean as a whistle and sews beautiful straight and zig-zag stitches, but it's rather noisy. The manual says not to lubricate the machine.

So - what's everyones' feeling - do I go ahead and try to open it up and lubricate, or do I leave it alone and sew on it until it dies? Alternatively, I could take it in for a tune-up with the OSMG, but that would cost money and I'm cheap! Do any of you have this model? What do you think of it? It's nice and light, which is a plus for classes.

Thank you!

Vintage is generally accepted to be 25 years old. Most modern machines are made of plastic impregnated with oil. The plastic/oil eventually stops lubricating and you're then expected to throw the machine away and buy a new one.
I have fixed a machine like that, though: A 1980s Janome. A friend sort of tricked me into looking at it. I opened it up and saw the problem (reverse lever stuck). Got the oil out and partner informed me that Janomes should never be lubricated (apparently it's in the manual). I ignored the advice and the machine was working five minutes later.
So it's up to you but I would do it, especially if I were cheap. After that I'd sell it because I hate plastic sewing machines :o

Yup, what he said! In my mind, "vintage" = the all metal machines.

That does make sense. But maybe it should be over 35 years because my Singer (sew&touch)was plastic that I got in the early 80s.

Tri-Flow is a synthetic oil that I've had good results using for supposedly no-lube machines; it quieted them down a lot. (I think it contains Teflon in tiny particulate form). Use the tube on the nozzle so you can direct the spray accurately, away from electrical components.

I think the case of no-oil machines is only because of the delicate electronic parts, they are susceptible to oil spill. I'm not sure what they do to make them lubrication free; the first explanation I was given years ago was they use teflon embedded plastic, it's super slippery and doesn't need it. More recent info I have found is that new machines store the lubrication in the joints and hinges, as a reservoir. When the parts are in motion the oil will dispence around the parts, and return to it's place when the machine rests. These joints need a refill now and then and that's where an anual service comes in. Noone really dares to mess with a brand new Bernina 770 or a Husqvarna Ruby, but I doubt lower to medium priced machines have those fancy reservoir joints and hinges (I'm not really sure what they call them). The makers give us very little information, everything is very limited to a few phrases in a manual.

I was afraid of all that! Well, I'll probably keep it as a lend-out machine to the youngsters. Can't sell a gift from my DH's co-worker! Not right away, anywho. Thanks for responding!

Since it's on your hands and in working order don't disregard it completely. Ciruit boards can last a long time, if it's a nice machine in other respects I would at least try to do a bit of DIY maintanance; cleaning, and being extra careful with the oiling, but it probably needs some. If you need a light weight portable machine, it might be up to the job and worth the effort. Just remember that when parts start to fail it's probably not worth hunting down replacement parts.

All the info here fits with what I know and have heard, especially about avoiding oiling the electronics and throwing a plastic machine away when it breaks. I'd also like to add that in an article written by a sewing machine repair guy he specifically said that manufaturers tell owners not to oil their machines because many owners would oil everything including the belts, and since belts work by friction few things work more poorly than an oiled machine belt. I've also never heard of sewing machine oil damaging plastic or nylon gears.

Maybe you could use it in it's great functioning but noisy condition until it acts up then carefully oil it to see if you can get it working again?

Reminds me of that Chrysler made Kenmore where the manual says not to oil it. I think that was the first one where the manufacturer/seller intended for the machine to stop running eventually.
I'd open it up and clean and oil it like normal. What do you have to lose?
Rodney

Tri-Flow oil is not synthetic. The grease is though.

Grrr. The wording in those manuals is a pet peeve of mine and several service people I know. The machines are intended not to be oiled by the user - newer ones are barely even accessible even if you do know where to bear hug it (Seriously, I've bruised,... uh parts of me trying to hug tight enough in the right spots!) - they ARE meant to be serviced and oiled annually. SM techs are usually a little more accurate with the oil and don't endanger belts and computer boards thus voiding warranties.

Many SMTs, it appears however are no better at NOT breaking plastic tabs that hold bits together. The damage I find inside machines I service for the first time (but that have been serviced professionally previously) is disappointing.

It's a lot cheaper to make something that snaps together than it is to pay for the extra steps to make something that's screwed together. I'm not sure if it falls under "value engineering" or "planned obsolescence". I hope it's just the cheaper machines that are designed that way.
Rodney

I have to bear hug $10K sewing machines - their clips are the hardest usually - the least flex in the body to accommodate the release of the clips.

Haha, $10K machines are clipped? I'm not sure I've seen that expensive machines, half they price I have though. As long as it's done well and it works I suppose it doesn't matter that much. I remember a conversation at the local sewing machine store years ago. Someone was comparing new machines to old and bragged something awful of the new computerised features and the fact you don't oil them. Everything with them was much better and easier in her opinion. We sat there test sewing a few models. At the time I took if for granted, and I was a mit miffed at the fact that I felt the new model i question felt a bit flimsy and plasticy compared to my old rather plain Bernina. I thought it was me who didn't get on with the new technology.

So it's a fact they all are to be oiled, just by a professional not the average user?

Now I know there are very nice brand new ones too, but it's so easy to get talked into all kinds of things when you sort of don't know that many models. I'm still very limited when it comes to what I have experience with hands on.

To be fair, almost all of the models are -mostly- screwed together but under the arm and the inside of the pillar (the throat side) are usually clipped. The thicker the pillar - usually on embroidery machines and the big quilting domestics (i.e. not long arm machines - which are basically overgrown modern versions of vintage machines) - the further I have to wrap my arms (losing leverage) and the harder the plastic is to compress.

The reason it's a pet peeve for us service people is that when the manual says "Your machine does not require oil" people think "YEAH!! I don't have to take it to those service shysters!" Then they run the @!#@ out of them and never clean the lint out of them and then surprise surprise, the machine "fails", and they bring it in where we spend 30 minutes getting the impacted lint out just to SEE the inner workings of the machines. :( Also - when oiling - not all parts are oiled anymore. Yes, some "joints" have special washers, etc to provide lubrication and "slip", some "joints" are plastic or nylon - so no dinosaur oil required or wanted there. There are other spots though that still need care, plus the obligatory de-linting. I regularly find lint and thread in the motor area, as well as stuff that shouldn't be stuck to the circuit boards, etc. We also run the on-board diagnostics to find errors that the user might not be detecting, or things that are out of spec and adjust (ie calibrating swing, testing pulse motors, etc). This is over and above the regular mechanical checks/adjustments.

It should read that it does not need to be oiled between annual servicing appointments.

It should also have in big bold print that failure to delint your machine between cleanings may void your warranty. When the lint packs up and starts wicking oil and grease away from bearings and gears and causes premature wear, it's abuse. I've stopped going to bat for warranty for people who repeatedly do this to their machines. I show them how to remove plates and get in there. I'm not technically part of your cleaning staff, I'm a technician!

Today I had an "emergency" call - I don't work Saturdays but made an exception because I knew this gal was under a very tight deadline. "Not feeding fabric" - The lint was so impacted that it was lifting the throat plate when the dogs went up. On a machine that had a screwed down throat plate this could have been an even bigger "failure" - a possible "seizing" when the dogs couldn't lift anymore. As it was, Pfaffs have some "give" and just basically put themselves into darning mode by lifting the plate with each dog rise. ;)

She was here watching me diagnose it - so when I saw the plate lifting when I turned the handwheel, I showed her. "Oh! You've been felting!" I said... "No, only quilting... this machine doesn't felt..."

Oh yes it does. ;) I showed her what happened and what she had to do to stop it happening again. She told me she's never removed the throat plate. Ever. Since she got the machine. Or had it serviced.

I sent her home with an un-serviced machine - just fixed the immediate problem after I extracted a promise from her that she would bring me the machine next week when she was finished her project

Ahem... and to put us back on topic, I consider my probably mid 90s Pfaff German built mechanical machine to be very close to vintage and will likely call it vintage when I feel it's crossed that line - despite the plastic it has in it - because it's still one of the best workhorses I have in the house and it does more than most of the "modern" machines I service can do as far as heavier fabrics. It's far more capable than a lot of the 70s and 80s machines that are "vintage" right now.

Tammi the issue of having (non vintage) machines serviced has been a hot topic on another group I belong to. A long time Pfaff tech told us that North America(US and Canada) is the only place where people aren't being taught to service their own machines when they buy them because we've built a whole new industry of paying someone to do what we should be doing ourselves.
The new Janome stand alone embroidery machine has several pages of instructions on how to open the machine and clean/oil where it needs it. This, and several conversations with this tech has given me the confidence to go a little deeper into one of my Janomes and try to figure out an occasional issue it has.

Cari

What do you do with plastic and nylon gears then? Is it telfon spray, teflon dry lube of some sort or just leave them alone? There are indications plastic gears can benefit from being lubricated, and I think they used a type of oil with teflon in the test I read about; (less friction and wear). I don't want to do anything very wrong.

When these 15, 30 or 40 year old plastic wonders turn up, I usually go for a DIY clean up and see if they still stitch and run fine. I haven't bothered with electronic boards yet, having had a few attempts at apple and windows portable computers that never really was worth the effort.

Cari, I think it goes both ways - I would teach people to maintain their machines if they wanted to learn but most don't want to learn. Excuses I've heard are: "afraid of the technology", "not so mechanical", "would break something", "not smart enough", "no time", "don't want to" and many others. And there's NO way that some of these machines are friendly enough to be able to expect the average user to get into them. Some of them are darned hard to get all the way into.

It's something I think users SHOULD be doing. It's part of taking responsibility for your machine.

I also think that someone who maintains their machine will be more likely to tell me something more than "It's not working right" when it does need to come in for something, and they're more likely to take better care of it in general. I'd certainly see less lint popping up like a djinn out of a bottle when I take the throat plates off!!

I do think though that some service people need to be more honest and willing to educate. Some of the things I hear being charged for and that the service technician won't tell them what they did... that breeds distrust - not unlike auto mechanics. That said, DH works at a car dealership and the number of people who misdiagnose the problems with their vehicles and come in and order all the wrong parts is staggering. "I need an engine fuse, my check engine light is on" is my favorite recent one. ;)

Try this site: http://www.janomeservicevideos.com/ It's likely not got the newer machines on it but a lot of the Janome machines (and Kenmore) are built pretty similarly. It has a bunch for the 350E.

I think the MC350E was one that had videos on some basic oiling as well on the video that came with it. I appreciated that. I think you should try to tackle some of the issues. :) Just take pics and maybe see if you can be-friend a service center who will sell you parts if you need them. The supplier I use only has parts for older models so my goal this coming year is to befriend one of the shops in town who services what I do and see if I can work out getting the very few parts I tend to need that I can't get otherwise.

You mean after I stop muttering and obsessively checking for cracks? :D A fairly light coat of synthetic grease shouldn't hurt them. Typically we suggest not oiling or greasing nylon or plastic because dino oil/grease or other organic oils/greases may attack the nylon and plastic. Synthetic though is supposed to be benign to plastic and nylon. I use Super Lube which is like the Tri Flow Lube with PTFE, I put it in a syringe and dispense it like we do on the vintage machine gears - maybe a little lighter. I just haven't found the TF grease in Canada for a reasonable price yet. I usually take a look at the state the gears came in from the factory - if there's evidence they were lubed, I lube. If not, I often leave them because depending on the location of them they can pick up a LOT of lint and the grease will just hold it to the gears. That said, SPO suggests the "best grease money can buy" (note the WalMart brand wheel bearing grease...) I almost fell out of my chair when I saw that. ;) I think this is the video: http://www.sewingpartsonline.com/blo...machines-gears

One thing to keep in mind with the electronic machines is that sometimes when "one of the boards" has been diagnosed as a problem - it could be a fuse. I bought a lot of "parts" machines from the Singer store before it closed here and that was written on one of them. An Athena 2001 I think. I had 2 of those machines and managed to get one working when I found the fuse that didn't look like a fuse (it was inline with some module and was wrapped so it wasn't immediately obvious) and removed it from the other machine and put it in that one.

Tammi - thank you for all the information! I went ahead and opened up the beast (that one screw in the bottom tried hard to hold it together, but I found it!), and cleaned out some dirty grease, then added clean Tri-Flow grease to the gears and a little bit of oil to what bearings I could see. Put her back together - she still runs! I didn't break anything!! A little smoother and quieter now - maybe she'll last another 20 years!

Great to hear it! :)

Tammi,
Thank you, thank you, thank you for that link! Those videos are gold, just what I need.

Cari

You're welcome. ;) I think I found that when my 350E was having a hissy fit about an allegedly low bobbin (that was 3/4 full). The problem went away the last time I was stitching so I haven't fixed it yet - I hate trying to troubleshoot intermittents because you never know if you got them. Since it's my machine, I can get away with that. :D

The low bobbin that isn't is not unique to your machine. Mine does it too and I've been told it's common with this machine. I've learned to ignore it. I use a full bobbin when starting a project(or a half full one for something small) and use the low bobbins doing test stitch outs where it doesn't matter if I have to change the bobbin in the middle of something. It can make the test stitching take a long time though. My last test had 19 color stops and used up 5 low bobbins so a 45 minute embroidery took me 2 hours. Which sucked all the way around because I had to make color changes and test it again. Then change the stabilizer and test it again. Still not satisfied, I think I'm gonna try a piece of felt. All for a stupid apron pocket. Dad might get his gift next year, lol.

Cari

That's what I was reading when I went and searched too. ;) I didn't figure it was my machine only but I wanted to see if people were getting it resolved. I figure I'll make sure everything's in spec anyway and then if it is, I'll live with it. I've also been using Clear Glide pre-wounds, so I wanted to see if that might have anything to do with it. I don't love those pre-wounds though. The last 3 out of a 10 pack have had the last 20ft or so tied on which really sends the machine for a loop til it breaks the thread! LOL! I have the odd design that challenges me too. So far most of my playing has been fairly simple stuff. Leather's the worst I've tried and that went off without a hitch.

This design is crazy. The first stitch out with fusible interfacing and one layer of tear away, it puckered just a little in one spot. When I did the second test, I rotated it 45 degrees and used two layers of tear away. It puckered in a different spot! Third test with one layer of cut away, better but I think two layers are needed. It's a real dense design.
I also don't care much for pre wounds, even the Janome ones. I bought a cone of Madeira Burmillion 60wt. bobbin thread.
http://www.allstitch.net/product/mad...white-5196.cfm
It's very thin, it feels more like a 90wt. I had to tighten the bobbin tension a little but other than that it works great and lasts forever. I've wound dozens of bobbins and the cone doesn't look like it's been used at all.

Cari

Most things these days, I just go straight to 2 layers of cut away. When you layer, do you turn one piece 90 degrees? The shop where I get my thread from suggested that. It's a little more stability because the fibers are stronger in one direction more than the other so this sort of balances it out.

I'll check that thread out. I can't recall who in the city carries Madeira but I'll see if I can't find a spool to try.

Yes I do turn one piece. I probably should have used 2 layers to start with, I was trying something new by using the fusible interfacing. It would have been okay if the design wasn't so dense. I should have known better, just have a lot of irons in the fire right now along with the pain in my hands so not thinking clearly.

Cari

I get that. I don't think I've read the "turn one piece" anywhere, and I didn't have access to lessons with my used machine so I don't know if they talk about it there either. So I thought I'd mention it. :)

I can't remember if I read the turn one piece somewhere or if someone told me about it. I had about 10 minutes of instruction when I bought my first embroidery machine, the MC200E. They told me more about what it couldn't do than what it could do. I scheduled a class but it was 3 weeks out. By that time I had figured out that it could do most of what I was told it couldn't do so I cancelled the class. I figured if the dealer who's supposed to know their machines couldn't figure out the simple things I had figured out on my own, I wasn't going to educate them. I also bought my 350 used but by that time I was pretty confident that I could go it without classes. I was going to buy my 350 new but when I went to the dealer to talk to them about it all they wanted to do was sell me a 9900. I went home very annoyed and that day I found a used one only a year old for half the price of a new one. Now with that being said, when I buy the new MC500E I am gonna take the classes for that one because it's really a step up from the other two.

Cari

I don't know why salespeople steer people to something completely different than they're asking for. It makes no sense. The 9900 isn't an embroidery machine!

The only reason I take classes is that sometimes I can learn tricks and shortcuts that the teacher knows. It can save me some time and research sometimes but most things I learn on my own too.

The 9900 is a combo machine, they were pushing left over expo class machines. I liked the on screen editor, it can do lots more than the 350, but I didn't have 3K to spend and it wasn't what I wanted. The new stand alone 500 has the editing capabilities that I liked in the 9900, particularly the arc ability. I will take the classes when I get the 500.

Now, to bring this thread back on topic, do you know when the Brother PE200 was made? I know it's practically ancient for an embroidery machine so I consider it vintage. There were two versions of it. Some with snoopy designs built in and some without. I've read tons of things about it but can't take any of it to heart because I read so many places that said it takes a class 66 bobbin and that's not true(Ask me how I know). I think maybe it was around 1990-1992 but I'd like to be more sure. Mine is the Snoopy version.

Cari

Weird! The photos I saw of it didn't look like there was an embroidery unit on it.

I'm not really sure about the PE200. Most of my dealings with Brother machines are the brand new ones. The shop I was affiliated with went into Brother about 2 years ago and hopped back out earlier this year. Typically, I serviced mostly machines that were bought there so 2 yrs and newer for the most part. Most of the Brother machines I've serviced can take a class 15 bobbin. ;)

That's what I'm using for pre-wounds in the MC350E. Sometimes I get lazy and use an L bobbin but is sometimes plays up the tension on it - probably the lip being too low and adding resistance or something.

I don't go by age really on the vintage machines. I think anything from 70's and older is vintage until they are antique at 100. I don't even have a clue why, other than when I see them they say vintage to me. The mostly plastic machines just don't say vintage to me. I had a new top of the line Kenmore in 1974, very nice machine but is very hard for me to say any newer than that is vintage. Besides I am getting old and don't like everything from my young adult years being called vintage now.:D:mad:;) I also think the snoopy version of the brother machine is early 90's.

Very interesting on the Janome and computer machines and lint. I took my Janome 8900 in because the thread cutter and some other things weren't working properly. They, my dealer where I bought the machine, has a rate they charge for their services listed on the counter. 160.00 for a service, so he looked into the machine to see what it might take and told me it would take a service call. So I did that. He said it would take a board because it got burned out by lint build up down inside. He hadn't seen so much lint in a machine before. HE asked if I used canned air, which I did sometimes when I couldn't get it out right. So he said that did it by pushing the lint down onto the board. So that was fine, I now vacuum my machine. It will cost another 50.00 to put the board in for labor because the board was on the warranty. I have had this machine for over one year and not sewed on it much because of illness, so to me that means with so much lint in there we should all be cleaning out the machines between services if we are going to be keeping them for any length of time. So we should really learn how to do the delinting ourselves for sure. Before this 8900 I had a 6600, I still have that, and had it in for service so I can sell it, and had no problem with lint build up in that machine and I used it a lot more than this one, so they must be made enough different where they lint up differently. When I asked about the cost of the service, he said it is because it takes him 4 hours to service a machine.

The 9900 has the weirdest embroidery arm connection that I've ever seen up close, but I haven't been up close to many higher end machines. It slides into place against the back of the machine and then you flip it out so it looks like the arm of the 350.

Cari

I think the most important thing we can do for our machines to show we love them is to clean out the lint ;) - no compressed air though, as you found out unfortunately. cans of air can also mis-align sensors (like the thread sensor) and the cutters. It's unfortunate that you lost a board before you found that out. :(

Vacuums can create a lot of static and electronics don't like that - make sure it's off before you vacuum and you should be fine.

$160 for a service? Wow. I'm SO undercharging!

I wish some of the machines were more friendly to get into. That whole part under the hook should come apart so you can brush out the lint at home - without having to remove the base and then have an unbalanced machine that could tip over!

I do find some machines seem to hold all the lint in one spot and others let it wander around. There are pluses and minuses to both build methods though.

I will have to look at my cousin's 15000 the next time I'm over there. I don't recall what its attachment looks like either. I have a love hate relationship with the 350E's attachment arm. I think it lets alignment problems happen if you have to remove the hoop sometimes. Of course, most of that is solved by having a full bobbin when you start. ;)

I guess if Bernina can re-use the number, my machine HAS to be vintage. But then, becoming eligible for Medicare makes ME vintage, too, doesn't it?

I'd guess most of us qualify as vintage, but very few as antique!