Need Advice on Powder Worm eBay Situation.
 

If possible I am posting my complaint standing with eBay and need advice on if I'm on solid ground or in the wrong.

I wrote the seller through eBay my concern the seller shipping an obviously powder post worm deteriorated platform with a vintage machine. Admittedly, I did not inspect it for live worms. For obvious reasons, I closed the package up as soon as I saw the cinnamon colored powder and pinholes in the wood. Thankfully, the item was sealed in a plastic bag. Upon registering a complaint and getting a response I opened the package outdoors and took pictures. One should be attached. Also, attached should be the sellers response and my intended response.

I'm interested in others opinions if I should send this response. It will be sent through the eBay claim system so as to have a record of communication.

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Close picture examination one can see the powder over everything. I have not, nor intend to, examine for live infestation.

The seller has responded to you and offered another solution to solve this issue.[TABLE="width: 100%"]
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Seller's message:
"I cannot believe that the platform for the sewing machine has worms and I didn't notice it. I have been selling on e-Bay for 16 years am in good standing with the company and didn't get to the point that I am now by selling inferior merchandise however I will refund your purchase price if you return the machine to me. If you want to keep the machine with a partial refund let me know how much you expect to have refunded and I will let you know if I can accept that. I am sorry that this happened and please let me know if you want to return it for the refund or if you want to keep it for a partial refund. Have a great day NAME EDITED OUT"


My intended response: Money is not the issue. Integrity is. You did not see this deterioration or mention it in the description? Seriously, you want me to believe that. I think I will let eBay decide what should be done. I want the machine and I will keep it. It has been brought to my attention this type selling should be exposed and if eBay decides to do that, I will be happy. Money will not make this right, sorry.

Ron,

If the seller has never been exposed to powder post worms before he may have not had any idea that there was an issue.
He could have just thought that the holes were old age or even holes from needles and pins pushed into the wood by an
Unthinking person. Not defending him, just another point of view. The first time I saw holes like those I didn't see any powder, so I
didn't realize there was a problem. I cleaned it up and applied new shellac. I suppose I smothered those critters in side the wood . However my damage was way less than yours.

Yeah, I'd have to say that EBay sellers are notorious for being unresponsive and inflexible. Seems like you found a seller that IS flexible and responsive. I think that their offer was reasonable. Not quite sure that i would have replied any different...

One "could" assume that the seller is being deceptive, but then why offer a solution that is under your control?

Also, remember that a LOT of folks do not think of these machines as tools but as hallway and shelf decorations and what we call wear,tear, and neglect they call "patina" and it is a plus.....

I would keep the machine and accept a partial refund and be content. The original listing claimed no refunds at all so this is a good halfway.

Before our conversations about the worms in the cabinet earlier this week I had never been aware of them. There is always a chance this seller is flipping out thinking they have bomb their house.

Deep breath, I don't think you are being pushed around here at all.

Well, until this post I'd never even heard of powder worms - and I'm 53 years old!

I personally think you got a very good response from the seller, and hopefully the seller will have learned a lesson and will look for items like that closer. I've bought machines and cabinets from as far away as GA - and never thought to look them over good for insects before bringing them into my house - so I figure I've learned a valuable lesson the easy way here.

I think you've gotten lucky the seller is willing to work a deal with you so you can keep the machine and get a discount. I think if you let eBay decide, they will tell you to ship it ALL back at the seller's expense. Anything else you want would probably require you to take the seller to civil court. I don't think eBay is going to take any emotional suffering into account.

I agree with the responses, that the seller really probably did not know.

He is probably surprised, really. What Steve (I think) said, about most people just seeing old wood with dents and hollows, and not being attuned to it being critters.

I think quite honestly it was an honest mistake. Ron, I think you said before that you tend to be a push-over. I totally understand that! I am also. Sometimes, when a push-over pushes back, sometimes it is tempting to to so with great force. I totally understand if that is a feeling that you have now. (Been there myself, too!) However, I really truly echo the others here, that the guy selling it -probably- just thought it was a funky antique look, and really did not think of infestation.

If it were me, I would suggest a reasonable partial refund; possibly half price? I don't want to muddy the waters by talking about $, but I think you are great with your hands and you can probably build something nice to pay hommage to the lovely machine.

I think the most important thing to end up with is a Good Feeling about the machine. I really think it is best to assume that the seller was not out to cheat you; or else you will have an icky feeling about the machine.

That is just my opinion, of course.

OK, you folks have convinced me. But, would it have been responsible of the seller to at least indicate the platform was deteriorated, turned to powder and contains multiple pinholes? When I first opened it and powder flew from the plastic bag and I saw all the pinholes I closed it up quick. Upon opening outside to take pictures after the seller's response, I realized it is much worse than expected. The seller could not have made a mistake to neglect mentioning the platform. At the least, as a seller if I had not intended to mention it, I would have removed the platform prior to selling. OK! A no win situation.

I will not accept a refund as the seller originally indicated they do not operate that way. I'll take them to their word. Money does not dictate.

Steve, from your posts I have read, I can't believe you would not have mentioned in the selling description the platform is toast.

I would have. But what I was saying was that if I was in the same situation that the seller here was in, the reply of an offer to "return for full or let's talk about a partial" would be what i would probably send.

Ron, if you keep the base, I think can kill the buggies and larvae by kiln-drying it; this base is small enough to use your oven as a kiln.

(The chemicals are NASTY and not always effective; trust me, I know from a bad experience... :-( )

Perhaps Uncle Skip/Glenn can chime in here as to an appropriate temperature and duration?

One the buggies are dead and gone, you could fill and restore the rest.

Good luck! I know you will find a good solution. And I really don't think dude was out to hose you. I hope you end up feeling good about it :-)

The other post on powder post beetle the article I found said over 120*F internal temperature to kill the worms or deep freeze temperatures for several days. I would try freezing first, less chance of warping the wood.

I'm arguing the other way here. The damage is pretty severe. It's far more than a few little pinholes. There's enough wood eaten away to change the outside shape of the molded corners. Were there any pictures of the worm damage in the pictures? That would be the telling point for me. No pictures of obvious damage no matter the cause would indicate fraudulent intent through omission to me.

To find out if you have a live infestation brush all the wood dust off and wait to see if new dust appears. If it does then the little bugs are still in there feasting. Honestly though if the outside of the base looks like that, the inside is far worse. If you were to cut one of the boards in half it would be just a shell.
Rodney

I understood that. I guess what I'm saying is I think the seller knew of the problem and if a buyer doesn't complain, so much the better. It's like my dentist saying if the IRS catches me, I'm so far ahead of them, I'll pay off. The seller is doing the same here. If it's an honest mistake OK, but if they are playing this catch-me-if-you-can game, I don't want to play. My dad always said the more one plays with a txxd, the more sXXt one gets on their hands. (Sorry for the vernacular, but that's my dad). I guess I have to not play the game. Thanks for listening, I appreciate it. Through a computer screen is really difficult to communicate.

Rodney, the severity is what really set me off on this transaction. I really didn't know it was so severe until I re-opened it to send pictures. I'm waiting to get it out of my immediate area so I can dispose of the powder, wood and any infestation, if any. I'm not taking a chance. On the lighter side, like someone said, I think I got a good deal, but really thought it was even better than it is. Thanks for the encouragement.

Cecilia, thanks for the encouragement, but the base is not worth saving. I would like to make one similar, but am almost afraid to handle it other than getting it off and burning it. I guess I'll take some better QUICK pictures to have an idea of the original.

My thoughts are yes, DO make arrangements for a discounted sale, not that the money matters to YOU at all, but because it will make an impression on the seller. He may not have known that the wood had bug damage but he certainly had to know something was not quite right and failed to mention it.

With the amount of damage I can see, there is likely even more damage inside from what my reading told me. You might be better off to make a nice new display platform that you feel is structurally sound as well as completely bug free.

If you decide to keep the base and work with it, I would do the kiln drying. Here is a site I found to give reference temperatures and times. http://www.thermapure.com/pest-servi...oring-beetles/

Don't panic about them. You're looking at years of infestation in that case. That thing sat for years in someone's basement or a similar spot unattended. The chances of them spreading into your house in a short amount of time are very slim.
Rodney

Christy, thanks much. That gives me a starting place.

"Neutral" ebay feedback with description seems appropriate. This will show up in there selling performance for a year as a smudge mark.

Jon

weren't there any photos? Can you link to the closed listing?
If you escalate to PayPal you will get your money back, but you will have to return the machine.

exactly and the seller already apologized for the mistake and offered you an offer which to me is fair. you already got a good price on the machine and an offer for a partial refund. what else do you want from a seller? give the seller the benefit of the doubt. the ball is in your hand - return it or keep it with partial refund.......

I worked in customer service for a long time and later on ebay for years. I was very careful with descriptions however, what one person sees and another hopes to see may be different. Here is one of my experiences at local auctions...I have bid on objects seeing them as perfect and the minute I got it in my hand the defects or condition were evident. Like I mention, sometimes it is the buyer whose condition expectations are a bit distant to the reality. It happened to me even after 20 yrs of buying and selling antiques. On the side of the seller, this seller IMHO, failed to be entirely honest regarding the condition and then made an error by saying they didn't see this. If I had been the seller and a complaint came like this I would make a full refund with the contingency of not getting a negative feedback. That would be my position with many apologies. Customers will remember a negative transaction over and over and replay and tell it again and again while positive transactions never get told. I was in customer service work for years and once headed up a committee on resolving customer complaints when I was much younger. My reputation as a seller was far more important to me than one transaction gone bad.

Only thing seller did wrong was poor description by ommission. Hard to believe seller could have missed this but they might suffer from poor eysight.

Ron and Rodney,

Having taken another look at the photos I agree with you (and defer also to Christy, who just had her own unfortunate experience!) about the damage being likely a lot worse inside than out. So, I re-think and retract my idea of saving the base... it very well is likely too far gone. Sad, that.

Anyhow, good luck. I must say, it is really nice to have such a resourceful bunch here! I really enjoy all he various takes on things.

-C.

Yes, definitely not worth the risk of those insidious little worms eating your home. Burn it up and make a beautiful new one (I'd take lots of measurements and pictures of the infested one first).

Absolutely! From the pictures you've posted, that damage (even if the seller didn't know what it was caused by) should absolutely have at least been mentioned in the listing...though I would also expect a picture to be posted as well! If you saw actual powder there is also a fairly good chance the worms are still active, which means they will need to be treated...please keep it very far away from any other wood furniture you have before it can be treated. I'm not sure the cabinet is salvedgable...hard to tell from your pics. I'm really not sure what I'd do to be honest, but in my opinion Ebay does need to know about this, though to be fair to the seller I do think it's a good idea that you're including their reply in your complaint. Asking Ebay how they suggest that you should proceed would be my first course of action. I would reply to this effect to the seller, but in maybe a bit softer a tone than your intended mail. Particularly this part is a bit aggressive: "You did not see this deterioration or mention it in the description? Seriously, you want me to believe that." And I totally understand why you want to answer this way, believe me! But I think it might only make the situation worse. Something along the lines maybe of, that you would have expected the damage to have atleast been mentioned, since it is rather extensive, would probably be less confrontational. And then inform them that youre going to let ebay handle the situation.

Good luck!

I agree...if you leave it to e-bay doubt you will be happy with their response. The seller should have posted more pictures to show the true condition and you would have realized a problem before bidding. I think the fact that the person was willing to take it back for full refund shows he is trying to maintain a good business reputation that it wasn'r his intention to deceive.

we have no way of knowing at this point what the listing said and what photos there were....

For anyone interested in the original listing it is here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hand-Turned-...vip=true&rt=nc

Like most things there are so many differing opinions and all are right. The board is toast, the buyer feels the seller knew it and didn't disclose it and seller is willing to offer full refund. Buyer would only be out $43.40 in shipping and a lot of time. Buyer's intentions are to keep everything as is, give negative feedback explaining the lack of description and seller's offer to refund total price. That is exactly what happened and buyer has the option of give honest feedback as a buyer. Other buyers should be aware of sellers whom do not fully disclose condition. Thanks everyone for the input.

Aggravating stuff but you still did well for a handcrank and at least the head was not damaged in shipping. Hopefully building another base is an enjoyable project for you.

Jon

This has been a learning experience for me, I am 65years old and have never heard of powder worms. Hope you can get this resolved to your satisfaction.

So....you're keeping the machine and giving negative feedback?

CD in Oklahoma

Please bear in mind that since the seller did try to remedy the situation (offering partial refund or full refund, with return), if you leave Negative Feedback, the seller would be justified in also leaving negative feedback for you (for refusing to let him/her make it right). My advice would be to accept the partial refund and leave Neutral Feedback.

Sellers can't leave negative feedback only positive and should have offered round trip shipping return or negotiated on price so that buyer is happy.

Jon

Yea. That’s the reason I haven’t used eBay for several years.


CD in Oklahoma

The playing field is in favor of the buyer and it's up to seller to make sure buyer is happy. I admire your website and I could also avoid ebay if I had a set up like that :)

Jon

The first picture does show worm damage if you know what you're looking at. I think more pictures showing the damage more clearly would have been better but it's hard to say the seller was intentionally deceptive about the extent of the damage.
With a winning bid that low you still got a great deal IMO.
I think you could build a reasonable approximation of the original base.
Rodney

Never would have know it was worms if not for comment here. I would have wondered how wood could rot like that. Seems seller is willing to try to fix the mess...and I'll bet he just might have learned something. YOU have the upper hand in the negotiations---use it-fairly.

Being a cabinet maker and wood worker's wife, I would have know immediately that something was wrong with the wood. The signs are pretty obvious. Again, I have been exposed to woodworking and wood all my adult life -- something like that might have been missed. I think, if you look at it from a legal standpoint (and I am NOT advocating litigation or court action at all) if the seller is a business person, he has a responsibility to know! Then again, some people are simply oblivious to what's right in front of them! I think you would be better served by taking a partial refund and being neutral as far as E-Bay is concerned!

Jeanette

A negative feedback can result in buyer blocking any more transactons, not that buyer is anywhere interested in anything seller might offer.
Buyer does have an option, a responsibility, to ask questions about condition before comsumating transaction.
Lessons that hurt are more deeply remembered. I plead with you to rethink the negative feedback. What else do you want from seller? And, then, have you asked for it?
l

I recently bought some fabric on ebay. The listing showed the correct fabric but, the seller sent a different yet similar one. Initial response from the seller was not good. He was "confused" about how I didn't like the fabric he sent, didn't want to pay me back for the shipping fees I had paid if I returned the fabric even tho he did acknowledged he sent a different fabric from the one pictured on the listing. I called ebay and talked to a rep there and she advised me to go into my file on that listing and mark that I was not accepting the sale....forget now exactly how that is done. But, it triggers a note to the seller that there is a problem and the note comes from ebay and if you were returning the item due to a seller error, the seller does not get their listing fees returned to them from the original sale. Within 2 hours, I had a note from the seller going on and on about why I contacted ebay and etc. but, he offered to accept the return, pay the shipping costs to return the material and he relented and returned the purchase price and shipping costs I had paid via paypal. I got the phone number for ebay by doing a google search for ebay customer service. so, that might be an option if you can't work something out with the seller so that you are satisfied.