Singer 15-91 ugly bottom stitching
 

First, let me qualify: I have no experience sewing, save for sewing a patch on a uniform or an emergency repair... That being said, I purchased a Singer 15-91 because I read that it is a good machine for sewing marine canvas. Which I have, in need of repair. Sunbrella is the brand of canvas to be specific. At any rate, after about 4 hours or reading, experimenting, and cursing, I was able to successfully make it stitch without a) breaking needles, or b) jamming up into a tangled mess. However, I am still getting ugly bunches of overlapping thread on the bottom on the material. Topside looks great. Details: I am using a #14 singer needle with Gore Tenera V92 thread. I guessed at the bobbin tension, and the top tension is pretty much in the middle. (Tenera is very slippery, as it is basically PTFE, or teflon.) I'll be sewing through about 2-3 layers of sunbrella canvas. Any ideas?
The full size image is here:http://www.pbase.com/mchad/image/144031062/original - it's too big to display here.
http://www.pbase.com/mchad/image/144031062.jpg

Sometimes it could be that it's threaded incorrectly or the needle is in the wrong way. I hope it's a simple solution that solves the problem.

When this happened on my Featherweight the bobbin case/shuttle was in wrong. I have a 15-91 and love it. I haven't taken the bobbin case out before, it is quite similar to the featherweight so hopefully that will help you Do you have the instruction book for your machine? Hopefully you have it, look at pages 30 - 31. It tells you how to clean the Stitch forming mechanism.

Here is a website of the manuals - just find yours

http://www.ismacs.net/singer_sewing_...e-manuals.html

I too have a 15~91. Make sure there is no fuzz or threads in the bobbin case. I just blow it clean or use a make up brush when i change bobbin threads. Also rethread it again from the start. It may look right buta little off. It is sewing fine for a bit so looks like may just be dirt or thread off. Make sure the needle is threaded right. Mine is right to left and the bobbin thread is in correctly. I love mine. Its about all i use anymore!!!

A 14 is a pretty lightweight needle for heavy sewing like you're doing...try a jeans needle, or a 16 or 18...

I agree with Charlee...the eye on a 14 is probably too small for the thread to pass thru easily & I'm thinking it's not really heavy enough for the fabric either.

I'm impressed with the number of good suggestions, so quickly. I do have the manual, so *I think* I have it threaded correctly, but I will confirm. I'll also check the mechanism and clean the case as suggested, and report back. I do have a 16 needle which I will try as well. Thanks all.

Do not pay attention to the number on the tension. It would be easier to see than to explain how to adjust the tension. Here is a link I started a long time ago - I didn't check to see if they are all still there: http://www.quiltingboard.com/vintage...s-t170748.html anyway it is a bunch of links. It could be that you have the threading wrong around the tension. The thread comes across the top of the machine, goes through the tension, through the tension spring, over the bar, then up through the take up lever. If you do the spring after the bar and then go from the spring straight up to the take up lever it might do weird stuff.

The Sunbrella should be light enough to be sewn by a Singer 15 if the project isn't too huge. If it is a large piece you may have to 'help' the fabric through the machine. When I made a 30 X 50 foot awning, I used some ramps and I folded the material a lot. I was using a Consew walking foot sewing machine. I wonder if you got the tail end of the thread caught in there? You can go up to about a size 18 needle - any bigger and your machine can't handle it very well. The needle won't fit the hole/bobbin/shuttle quite right and an over sized needle on that machine could damage the bobbin case or the shuttle or the throat plate and could make burrs. Trying to pull too much heavy fabric through could bend the needle shaft or the needle. The other thing I can think of that could make stitches like that could be a burr on the hook or somewhere. You have to feel around and then polish out the burr.

Can you shoot a picture of your machine threaded up - shoot the nose end with the tension?

That is exactly how I had it threaded. I though that is how the instructions said to... I must have been reading it wrong! I don't have time to try it now, as I have to go to work, but I will later tonight and check back.

Here is a photo, and here is the full size, where you can clearly see the route around the tensioner... http://www.pbase.com/mchad/image/144038814/original.jpg

The only thing that is not clear is that the thread goes through the needle from right to left after the last hook at the top of the needle "holder?"

Thanks again

http://www.pbase.com/mchad/image/144038814.jpg

One thing that people forget about is that when the presser foot is UP, the thread will slip in between the tension discs easily. But, when the presser foot is DOWN, the tension discs are locked and the thread won't go between the discs or sew correctly. Always thread your machine with the presser foot UP, then, when you lower the foot to sew, the discs snug the thread and the sewing will come out correctly....well, if everything else is done correctly.... like threading the needle from the correct direction, putting the bobbin in right, etc.

Miriam, I'm confused. Looking at the manual where it describes the threading route, it clearly says to come around the tensioner (2), over the hook (3) then under the spring (4) and up to the take up lever (5). If I understood your post, you say to go through the spring before the hook on the tensioner, then from the hook, straight up to the take up lever? Is that correct? See the instruction illustration below.

http://www.pbase.com/mchad/image/144039890.jpg


Now I'm confused...

Me too confused!!! I have never gone thru the bar last. It feels awkward. My stitches have looked good on my 15-91.

I guess you could try it both ways and see what works best for that machine. The needle threads from the left to the right. The needle goes in flat side toward the machine. It can be very frustrating getting it tweaked. Right now, I have a Singer 15 that pukes out bobbin cases & bobbins no matter if I have the take up lever all the way up, the bobbin 'clicked' into the groove or a new bobbin. Turn the wheel and pop - there it goes... rolls right out. I think some babies just puke. This machine looks like it has had VERY little use. I should try a different bobbin case AND bobbin and see what it does. Anyway it happens... :mad:

Mike, I think you're asking for trouble trying to go through three layers of Sunbrella with a #14 needle and V92 thread. I think I'd start with #69 thread and a 16 or 18 needle. Also, what type of needle point is it? Obviously you don't want to be using a ballpoint.

I sent mike a pm on what I found when I got my 15, yes very confusing, I read and read about threading some site say the needle threads left to right , then I find it has to do with where the needle bar thread guide faces,,, on the left side it threads left to right on the front it threads front to rear, which make sense,, lining the thread with the long groove in the needle, that diagram above look like front to rear to me ??

even more confusion I ran my # ( ah 695457 ) found it's a 15 - 96 from 1954 ?? there's no model tag , today ran it again it comes up a 1948 15 - 91 ?? this has a potted motor ( don't have a clue what it's 15 - something singer ) I also have a 201, these potted motor machines are very low power ,, they do not do well on heavy fabric's, Both of these have one steel gear and one fiber gear ,,, silver is steel, red is a fiber

The bobbin case, I had the same problem with this 15, I finally took the bobbin case apart is was clean but sticky, the latch was not sliding all the way in and only locking half way..

I disagree John!! Both my 15-91 and my 201-2 will power through everything I've thrown at them, and I've run some pretty heavy duty thing under those presser feet!

If you are using a very heavy thread you will need to make a bit of adjustment to the bobbin case and the upper tension. You may want to consider buying a bobbin case to just use for that thread & needle size.

"these potted motor machines are very low power ,, they do not do well on heavy fabric's, Both of these have one steel gear and one fiber gear ,,, silver is steel, red is a fiber"

I'm not sure where you're getting this part about them not doing well--the potted motor machines are plenty strong, and the 15-91's are my go-to machine for sewing through heavier stuff. The fiber gear has nothing to do with the machine's performance.

Bottom line is if you have a 15-91 that runs properly with lightweight fabric, there's no reason it won't do as well with heavier fabric unless you're using the wrong type/size of needle or needle point, you're using the wrong thread, you've got it misthreaded, or something on your particular machine is not set up correctly.

I'm like Tim the tool man ,,, Horse POWER ...

"I'm like Tim the tool man ,,, Horse POWER ..."

It's a sewing machine, not a tractor pull. If it's raw horsepower you're after, you'll need to go industrial.

I think you may be missing my central point, which is that horsepower doesn't mean anything if you can't get it to the rear wheels. The 15-91 has plenty of punch, which any number of people who use that machine can tell you, but that doesn't mean anything if you are not able to figure out how to get it to the rear wheels.

Do you have the needle in the correct position? Check your manual.

I strongly disagree! My 201-2 is a strong sewer...& sooooo quiet & smooth! A year or so ago, a lady posted pictures on patternreview.com of a piece of leather that she sewed to a wooden yardstick on a 201-2. She did say "Don't try this at home, kids!" but she wanted to show just how heavy duty a 201-2 is.

I certainly wouldn't abuse mine like that but it hems jeans like it's sewing thru silk....

:) A 15-91 only has one position...it's a straight stitch only machine.

I think she means is the needle put in there correct direction - flat side toward the shaft or machine.

Well, I got it to the point where straight stitches are working, once going. Whats happening now is that when the machine *starts* sewing, I still get that bunching of thread on the underside, but only for the first few stitches.

http://www.pbase.com/mchad/image/144061375/large.jpg

Full size see here: http://www.pbase.com/mchad/image/144061375 - looking at the image, you can see where i started on the bottom right: I sew going left, where I stop, rotate 90deg cw, sew a bit, stop again, rotate again and sew to the end. At every start, it bunches for a few stitches.

To reply to some of the comments: I need to use this thread. It is for a marine canvas, so I need UV proof thread. The thread is Gore (as in Gore-tex) Tenera V92 which is a lifetime thread, and is the thinnest thread they make for marine canvas applications. So no options there. I am currently using a #16 needle, installed and threaded correctly (which is right to left per the manual, by the way - needle bar thread giude on the right as well), which I have found is recommended for this thread by the mfgr. The thread is VERY slick, with the tension I have it dialed to. If I put in a much thinner cotton or nylon thread at the same tension, it is three times harder to pull through. As before, I do have the machine and bobbin threaded exactly as specified in the manual. All I did to get to this point is endless changes to both the bobbin and upper tensions. The machine seems eager to go through many more layers (I bought some similar weight canvas to practice on) then I will actually need to, so im not worried about that. And as this is already sewn, and I am just planning on going over the existing, disintegrating thread, i'm not worried about needing a walking foot.

If I can get that remaining bunching sorted out, I will be good. For this project at least.

I don't mean to insult, but you said you're a novice at sewing machines.
The reason the threads are bunching up underneath is because the bobbin thread needs to be pulled up before starting...just like in quilting.
PULL UP THE BOBBIN THREAD by taking one stitch manually. Here's a 1 minute video to show how to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEmMYMjWUo8 (hold top thread, take one stitch manually, pull up bobbin)

When turning the corner IS YOUR NEEDLE IN THE DOWN POSITION? ... it should be in the down position, turn fabric, then sew.

Hope this helps

Stitches look GREAT from the side we can see....what's the other side look like?

Its funny that you say that. Because when I first started this fiasco, no I wasn't securing the thread, it was hanging free. Now, i secure the top thread under the foot (as instructed in the manual) before starting. And yes, the needle is fully down before I raise the foot to rotate the material.

No offence taken, I know I have no idea what I am doing at this point!

Yep I even made moccassians out of leather with mine with out missing a beat !

oh it is not in the tension correctly, it is on the wire but not the metal 'U'


if the bottom fabric is slippery sew with a piece of tissue(gift wrapping type) under the project and fold it to the stitching , crease and tear off when finished.

Mike, are you holding both top and bobbin threads as you start your seam for the first stitches? Then you can let them go and just stitch....

I'm pretty sure it was routed correctly, but just to make sure I understand you, by "U" you mean point 3 on the illustration on my post on page 2? See the insert "L" - that is exactly how I have the thread routed around the tensioner. Down from the top feed, around the tensioner from back side to the front side, up over the metal groove (the "U"?) forward and under the spring, then up to the arm..

I don't actually hold them - I only recently made sure that they are under the foot being pressed in place... I can try that, but I don't think that will affect the "stop and start" bunching that I showed on my most recent photo post, as once it's started, there's nothing for me to grab hold of? Thanks

Well, taking the slack out of the first stitch will make the second stitch tighter, which will make the third one tighter...so, yes, IME, holding the thread tails as you begin does help.

Should that not work, you could always start sewing before where you need to, then go back and pick out the thread from the first few messy stitches.

I will try holding the first stitch, but that won't make much difference where you stop and change direction, without removing the needle, will it? I can't accept that this is normal operation, there must be something other then my inexperience at work here. I ordered a new bobbin case, just in case. Otherwise, I suppose I'll have to bring it in to a shop. It's too bad, because I really need to get this cover restitched, and if i have to service it, it will be another week... I guess if I bought a new machine, I wouldn't be in this "boat".

In any case, thanks to everyone who is trying to help. I really appreciate it!

Ditto on all the above suggestions. Re-thread, larger needle, check for burrs, hold the thread ends when starting.

Have you considered getting a teflon roller foot to improve fabric handling since you say your fabric is slippery? My Hubby sews canvas a lot (for his black powder reenactor hobby) and uses a roller foot and size 18 needles for the heaviest work. The 15-91 uses low shank attachments so a aftermarket roller foot shold be easy to find ... You say you recently got the machine - did you give it a good oiling everywhere before you started using it?

Mike,

I put 4 hrs on mine last night....and read many sites on threading and needle position,, then tried them all. I had this same problem when I got this, finally cured the problem but can't remember what it was..

last night, I had the same problem as you,, it's not constant. using 100/18 110/18 100/16 and a ploy thread.

My balling happens most often as it leaves the fabric,, the white stitches are from a standard treadle black is the 15 - 91

1st is 8 layers of T shirt next is only two


http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/a...7/100_8946.jpg

http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/a...7/100_8945.jpg

I played with mine during the day,,, and again tonight ,, I hope problem solved... teh pic he posted and the diagram are right ,, around the tensoiner over the hook and down to the spring then take up lever..
once again I took teh bobbin area apart down to removing the cast iron part that the hook rides in...

now you can see the loop form very well. most of the loop is on the left side ? outside, Hmm the hook is on the left side of the needle...

we know the cut out on the needle is there for the hook to past by on some machines.. ( one needle fits many ) .

we read here to put the flat side the needle on the right side / machine side , which also puts that cut out on the right side... but the cut out goes on the hook side ?? Ido and watch the loop form and twist side ways as the needle goes up.. so I turn the needle so that cut is facing teh hook, now the loop forms and stays open.

Isew and bingo she's working good BUT still at time I get a slight balling at the start if I don't pull the tails... if I raise the foot set teh pacth and go there's no balling .. I never had a ball in the run.

That needle in this machine has to go in with the flat to the outside, left ..putting the cut out facing the hook..

The 8 layers of T shirt were a piece of cake, it never missed in 5 pass or balled,

Ok taht was fun , now back to threading a new home LOL

Well, I think I finally found the problem. Top tension. After disassembling and reassembling the shuttle, checking that every joint is oiled, I decided it had to be a setting. So, I basically tried every combination of bobbin tension, and upper tension. I found that the higher the top tension, the less the underside bunching. My only problem now is that I have the top tension at max (10), and I am getting 97% good stitches. I imaging an 11 or 12 would get me 100%

Only problem is that there is no 11 or 12... So I am thinking that my top tension adjuster is bad, worn out spring perhaps? I'm going to see if I can replace the assembly before I start sewing my $1000 boat canvas. I finally see light at the end of the tunnel!

Thanks again for all the helpful suggestions.

One more request: A recommendation for a good place to buy a tension assembly online? :-)

Edit: Never mind. I found one on singeronline for a whopping $6.00!

Here is a link for rebuilding your tension. Some times if the spring is dead or just out of it's setting it will not adjust. This manual is the best I know of. I have walked through with this one and gotten several fixed very quickly. A new tension may or may not fix the 'real' problem. If you do rebuild, go slowly and carefully follow the directions. Keep track of the parts Here is a link to the tension repair manual: http://www.tfsr.org/pub/technical_in...echanism_2.pdf ALSO www.sew-classic.com has the spring for less than $1 - Jenny has other parts as well - great service, too.