Singer 301: Spool thread wrapping around bobbin case/shuttle
 

Hi everyone! I have just purchased a vintage Singer 301 (1952) that seems to be in good shape. The motor runs very smoothly, it's clean, oiled, etc... It's my first 'vintage' machine and I've been wanting one for a long while!

I've VERY carefully re-threaded it several times, using both the original manual diagram and a nice You Tube video, and, no matter what I do, as soon as I lower the needle (by hand) just once - to pull up the bobbin thread - the top thread catches on the bobbin shuttle/case. I've even taken out the bobbin case (and bobbin) and watched the bobbin shuttle area while I lower the needle and without fail, the top thread immediately catches on this sort of 'hook' on the bobbin shuttle (no bobbin case inserted!) and wraps around the shuttle.

As I said, I've re-threaded many many times, very carefully and following the instructions to a T. It's not that... Does anyone have any ideas of what it could be? It would be so sad to already have to take it for servicing the day I got it in the mail (and I wouldn't know where to take it locally anyway!). I've been waiting to finish a couple of heavy projects (for other people, no less!) and have been so excited for this machine to arrive! Thank you so much for any ideas!!!

ps...other things I've done, just to cover the bases:

--checked and re-checked the bobbin and case and changed the bobbin (as the spool thread wraps around the shuttle even without a bobbin case inserted though, I doubt this is the problem)

--checked for lint, tangled thread, etc... by looking from the side (nice thing about the 301!) and taking off the bottom and giving a good brushing/blowing down there. Nothing. It's clean!

--As stated, very very carefully re-re-re-re-re-threaded the machine per the diagram and video. I can now do it in my sleep and with one hand tied behind my back. Or even both. I could probably do it with the thread between my teeth at this point!

--patted her lovingly and cooed to her, begging her to please...just... WORK. Clearly not helping.

Is the hook assembly placed properly in the notch in the feed dog cover plate? It needs to fit in that slot when you replace the plate or there will be lots of problems. And is your needle in correctly? The flat side faces to the left.

Thanks so much for your response Candace! I did check the needle - flat side left :-) I'm afraid I don't quite understand about the hook assembly being placed properly in the notch...? This sounds promising though as I certainly have not checked that!

[ATTACH=CONFIG]435155[/ATTACH]Just in case it could help- here's a picture from below. You can see where the needle is coming down from above. I don't know exactly how it's suppose to be positioned relative to the hook....but maybe someone can tell from this if the hook needle timing is off? :-/ Thanks again for your help!

[ATTACH=CONFIG]435157[/ATTACH]And that area (without the needle down)...

I would suggest joining the vintagesingers yahoo group and directing the question to them. Even if you get an answer here, the vintagesingers group provides so much information about our vintage machines that it's worth joining.

Thanks Dunster! I just tried to join the group but yahoo seems a little off maybe? It keeps telling me that I must first create a yahoo profile though I'm clearly logged-in and everything. I tried logging out and back in with no luck....sigh. Today is not my day!

I am not sure on these machines but does the bobbin go in a case that is inserted here? If there is a little thing on the front of the case, pull it out and hold while you insert the case.

Thanks CJsews- the bobbin is in a case and I am able to insert and remove it fine. That's not the problem. It's that with or without the bobbin case inserted, the spool thread is getting wrapped around the hook/shuttle mechanism. The more I look at it, the more I fear that it's the hook needle timing...

The hook should be passing by the needle at it's lowest point, but when the needle is at it's lowest point, the hook is a good inch away still!! :-( So I really need to find a vintage repair manual and see how to adjust the timing... Unless someone can point me in the right direction...? :-)

It looks as if the position finger of the hook assembly that Candace mentioned is broken off. If you have your manual, you can check the part about replacing the bobbin case and it should show that area clearly. That little piece holds everything where it should be to work properly.


NC Pat

Yup, sorry, but part of your hook assembly is broken. The part that goes in the notch and stabilizes the assembly is broke off. You will need to get that part replaced. As-is your machine will not work. You can try April 30's shop via the net and send her the photo and see if she'll sell you just that one part. You will have to either try to do it yourself or take it in for service.

I am not sure what is wrong, but do you have a Singer needle in the machine? Maybe it doesn't like other brands. Could it be slightly bent? Is it inserted all the way up? Yours is a slant needle machine, so does it take a special needle? Also when you put in the bobbin, the thread has to come off a certain way, clockwise, counter clockwise, not sure which as I haven't used a machine with an bobbin case in a long, long time. But I remember that it also has to click or set as it is inserted. Run your finger around the bobbin casing (the part that is in the picture) to see if there is a burr that might be catching the thread. Also check the throat plate for burrs. Change threads to see if that is the problem. I think the hook should be near the needle when the needle goes down so that it can catch the thread and make the stitch. Try to google a manual for your machine, or look at other manuals to see what they say, as the machine stitch is basically the same. I would not adjust anything from another manual as yours is a slant needle machine, but you might get some idea as to the problem and solution. Worth a try anyway. Good luck.

Like Candace said, you have a broken part so it isn't going to work until you get that replaced.

here is what it should look like.


http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...ps000f2f3e.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...ps57f1c6df.jpg

And with the bobbin case in place.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...pscc48bc77.jpg

Oh nooooo.... that little piece is broken! Also - I tried to adjust the timing (following instructions) and the shaft won't 'disengage' from the gear even when the screws are completely removed, so it would seem that something is seized in there! So sad. Will have to take her to a professional at this point (and get some money back from the seller who advertised the machine as 'working well'. It's a shame how many sellers have to be educated on the meaning of phrases like that. It's like selling a car and saying it's working well because the engine turns over, but - oops - the transmission is toast. Obviously the car is not 'working well'!!! Arrrggghhh!)

Thanks all for your help!

And Macy- thank you SO MUCH for the pictures of what it should look like!!!!

Send me your email address and I will send you a close-up photo of my 301. I have never posted photos to the QB and don't have time to try. I agree you are missing the "finger".

The other thing is - if you try to turn everything when the bobbin case is out, it will always catch on that shaft.
It's in the way after all. The bobbin case will let it go up and over.

If your timing is out, it's relatively easy to set, once you get the parts to let go.
http://thefeatherweight221factory.com/page34.php
This link should take you to the adjusters manual for the 221, which uses the same hook.

The slant machines use the same 15x1 needle as any other low shank machine. The 301 and 221 both are completely fine with non-Singer needles, in fact, I don't recommend Singer needles anymore, they're poorly made like most of their current products. I use Schmetz in my 221, 222 and 301s, as well as all of my other machines. Organ is another good brand, they're what Superior sells.

As for the part you're missing, I would contact Glenn Williams as well. I find his pricing is much more reasonable than April1930s. I think the part number is 45926, and it's listed as no longer available from my supplier, but both Glenn and April will likely have one from a machine they've parted. It will look like this: http://www.sewingpartsonline.com/bob...g-machine.aspx Be aware, it's not a cheap part, so make sure you know what it's going to cost before you talk to the seller. My price sheet said it was over $40 wholesale before it was discontinued.

You can install the part yourself with the instructions in the owner's manual, or in the Adjuster's manual or this link: http://thefeatherweight221factory.co...MachineJam.php

Unfortunately "working" often means "the stabby thing goes up and down when I push the foot thingie and the light turns on."

Glenn Williams can be reached here: http://pages.suddenlink.net/joyof301s/glenn.htm I've dealt with him, and was very happy with the service.

I was also questioning if there was a broken piece there but will have to go downstairs and look at mine. Is the needle a 15x1 needle or the equivalent? And do you have it all the way up into the shaft as far as it will go? It is not usually a timing issue with these machines, maybe only 5 percent of all machines have timing issues. Try a different needle.

Thanks so much everyone! Unfortunately, the piece was most definitely broken. On a positive side though, when I took it to a local sew & vac, they saw it immediately and popped out the piece in two seconds. They're sourcing the replacement now (I'm just not in the mood for the runaround, nor to risk breaking something else while trying to fix it!). The piece itself is going to be $25 which I find reasonable. The timing is also VERY off (something I was able to see myself - the hook was a good inch from the needle when the needle was at it's lowest point!) so they're going to go ahead and adjust that and just give her a basic tune-up while they're at it. [FYI: The spool thread was tangling around the hook/shuttle WITH the bobbin case inserted. I took it out just to see what would happen...]

As far as the 'running good' in the listing - I agree that many people will say this if the motor runs and the needle moves, and I would certainly normally take it with a grain of salt, but this was a SEW & VAC company!!! Unbelievable. I'm not worried though as the ebay buyer protection is very clear and strict on these things. The repair shop is going to attest, on the receipt, that the machine was NOT running. It should have been listed as: "as is, for repair or parts" (according to ebay's own policies), so I have no doubt I'll be refunded the cost of the repairs.

And I can't WAIT to have her back - probably next week - to begin sewing with her!

Thanks everyone for the help!

:shock: If it weren't against the rules here, I'd ask who the seller is so I could avoid them in the future.

I'm really surprised that with the timing that far off that it wasn't breaking needles.

Your local shop is doing a good thing for you. :) Usually the price of used is about half of new, and half of double or more of wholesale is way more than they're charging you.

As if all that weren't bad enough - it's now been two days and the seller hasn't responded at all to my opening of the dispute. Unfortunately, ebay requires that I wait until the 16th to escalate it further. I wish I could warn people away from the seller, but all I can do is leave them negative feedback.

As for the timing- yes, very strange! I didn't actually try to sew with it myself at all (just got as far as using the hand crank to try and pull up the bobbin thread). The repair guy hypothesized that they might have actually tried sewing with it and ended up with a mad tangle underneath which they then tried to 'bully' out, which resulted in the breaking of the piece.

Then they sold me the machine, claiming it was 'running good'- hahaha. Oh well. I'm actually already in love with her and just can't wait to bring her back to her new home again.

And yes- they seem very nice at the local place - I definitely seem to have lucked-out! I was kind of drooling over all the gorgeous vintage machines they had for sale, refurbished, and we chatted shop a bit, so I think he knows I'll be a long and loyal customer if they win me over now!

Dbaila,

Make sure that the part (bobbin case base) is for a 301. That part is not interchangeable with the 221 even though the hook assembly is interchangeable.

Cathy

Even if the seller "makes it right" by refunding some portion of the money, I would still leave negative feedback saying that it wasn't as advertised and wasn't a working machine / parts were broken, etc, because that will help future buyers. Lots of sellers like to try to get you to leave positive feedback because they refunded some, but you are going to a lot of hassle for this machine, that you didn't expect to.

It -is- possible the seller is on vacation or has some other reason to not get back to you. I hope that's it.

Even trying to pull up the bobbin thread I would have thought the needle would have hit the hook with it that far out. The last machine i worked on for timing was less than 3/8" out and the needle was dragging. Lucky. It's a pain to deal with the shards.
It's always good to find a good SMG old or young. :)

It's not? That's weird, I thought it was. My supplier's list says that the hook base is the same for the 221, 222, and 301... so does the sewing parts online link I posted (no, they're not one and the same "supplier" ;) )

I will peel apart one of the 301s and see if I can get a part number for you then.

Do you have the needle in the right direction? Are you threading the right direction? Are there any burrs on the needle plate or the hook?

The hook assembly is the same. The bobbin case base isn't. The finger on the 301's base is shaped slighly different than on the 221. The 221 base will fit in the hook of the 301, but when sewing fast the finger will slip out of the space it sits in between the two springs on the underside of the feed dog plate. I have dealt with this exact problem when I serviced a 301 that had had the babbinn case base replaced by one from a 221.

She definitely has a huge burr in the form of the locating finger on the hook base being broken off. :(

I just disassembled the 301 - the part number on the Hook base is 170166. You are correct! (Not that I doubted you. ;) )

I did know that the piece with the 2 springs on it was different, as well as the throat plate (because it has screw holes for the springs in a different spot) but I didn't realise the finger was different too, but looking at them side by side, yes, they are a little different.

I wonder how many other parts are listed wrong on all of these sites then :shock: I wonder if the "replacement" was the 301 version and the longer finger is "OK" on the featherweight? I just don't know if I feel like disassembling both to find out...

I just took my 1950 FW apart - the hook base is 45752, not even the same number as in the parts charts.
Most of the hook parts that I can see numbers on (this far disassembled) are all different than the 301. Unless one number supersedes another I wouldn't have ever thought to interchange them based on the parts charts, and confirmed by what I see here.

Additionally, the parts chart says I should have the new bobbin case in the 301 (45751, not 45750) and it's the old one in it.

I guess the moral of this story is DBaila - make sure that the parts your local shop puts in are 301 parts and not 221 parts, and the correct part numbers may be a challenge to find out.

If the bobbin case is in place you will most likely not have the problem. However without the bobbin case in place I don't think the problem will go away.

What is your general location? Like --- what state are you in?

Me too
 

I am having the exact same issue with my 301A!! Did you ever figure out what was going on? But mire importantly the fix?
thanks
Sewing seems frustrating...
Randy