For giggles, continued, I saw it on...
#2341
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 613
I would buy a machine from an eBay seller (and pay the associated shipping costs as well as endure the worry it hadn't been packed carefully) if it was a model I really wanted and couldn't find elsewhere. And I just may do so once again as I'm no longer collecting the readily available, very mass produced Singer/Kenmore/White/Japanese/etc. models and am becoming more interested in the older, rarer, more expensive machines.
If someone can make a living flipping these very common machines for 500 - 1000% profit, more power to them. The Kenmore 15 clone featured above is a nice-looking machine in very good condition. But it's not worth the price she's charging -- not even close. The underside hasn't even been cleaned. It looks like she oiled it, then listed it. There's nothing wrong with that (as long as she's honest about condition and her photos are good) but I don't know why anyone would fall for the "freshly serviced and ready-to-sew" line except that they know absolutely nothing about sewing machines. This is an eBay seller who is relying on ignorance to sell at the price she's charging. If she can get away with it, well, caveat emptor. But I don't necessarily respect the seller and would never buy from her unless she was selling something I just couldn't find elsewhere.
(This isn't directed at or about anyone in particular, just some of my thoughts about eBay using the above seller as an example.)
If someone can make a living flipping these very common machines for 500 - 1000% profit, more power to them. The Kenmore 15 clone featured above is a nice-looking machine in very good condition. But it's not worth the price she's charging -- not even close. The underside hasn't even been cleaned. It looks like she oiled it, then listed it. There's nothing wrong with that (as long as she's honest about condition and her photos are good) but I don't know why anyone would fall for the "freshly serviced and ready-to-sew" line except that they know absolutely nothing about sewing machines. This is an eBay seller who is relying on ignorance to sell at the price she's charging. If she can get away with it, well, caveat emptor. But I don't necessarily respect the seller and would never buy from her unless she was selling something I just couldn't find elsewhere.
(This isn't directed at or about anyone in particular, just some of my thoughts about eBay using the above seller as an example.)
I think the most I've ever paid for a machine is $100 it was for a 5 thread pfaff/singer quantum lock 5 serger with an electronic differential feed and does like a billion type of stitches.
#2343
Super Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Centralia, WA, USA
Posts: 4,890
I'm a tightwad. I freely admit it. I also don't have any truly rare or expensive machines to show for it. Like anything else, truly good quality and rare machines are worth the money. If that first A.F. Johnson machine shown is all original, it may well be worth the money to a serious collector. The condition is excellent and how many in that condition are still floating around? The second tightwad example is closer to my budget at the moment and certainly isn't in nearly as nice of condition but if you want one of those machines it can get your foot in the door anyway.
The Kenmore may be a 15 clone but a diehard Kenmore collector may be willing to spend the money. I don't think 15 clone Kenmores are terribly common, at least by modern standards. I would be interested in the source code on it. Is it still a "White" machine or is it ordered directly from a Japanese manufacturer? If a White, then it would be an interesting machine in the sense that White had started buying machines instead of manufacturing them but still had the contract for Sears.
Rodney
The Kenmore may be a 15 clone but a diehard Kenmore collector may be willing to spend the money. I don't think 15 clone Kenmores are terribly common, at least by modern standards. I would be interested in the source code on it. Is it still a "White" machine or is it ordered directly from a Japanese manufacturer? If a White, then it would be an interesting machine in the sense that White had started buying machines instead of manufacturing them but still had the contract for Sears.
Rodney
#2344
Power Poster
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 15,506
Around here Kenmore 15 clones are common. BUT one of the Kenmore 15 clones I have is the one with the needle bar that probably has never worked - the shafts don't line up. The other one was one of the best clones. I also have one I'm holding for DGD Miss G since she was named after the lady that got it for a wedding present - then passed it on to me. It is a wonderful machine.
#2345
The Kenmore may be a 15 clone but a diehard Kenmore collector may be willing to spend the money. I don't think 15 clone Kenmores are terribly common, at least by modern standards. I would be interested in the source code on it. Is it still a "White" machine or is it ordered directly from a Japanese manufacturer? If a White, then it would be an interesting machine in the sense that White had started buying machines instead of manufacturing them but still had the contract for Sears.
Rodney
Rodney
#2347
#2348
117 machines were produced by several manufacturers including White and Gritzner-Kayser in then-W. Germany. I have several such machines. And as was discussed in another thread, 'clone' is open to interpretation. Many of these machines were rebadged (different colors, types of paint, chrome bits, etc.) but are mechanically identical. I have a 117.740 that was manufactured by Gritzner and was badged in several incarnations: Gritzner, White, Domestic (owned by White at that point), Pfaff, and Kenmore.
#2349
Do as I say, not as I do?
There is nothing wrong with flipping machines and anyone who attempts to misconstrue my text as implying as much is looking for something that isn't there. I've never written that buying machines to resell is a bad thing because I don't think it is.
That eBay seller is supplementing her income by buying cheap, readily available machines at thrift store/estate sale prices and selling them to ignorant folks at huge profits. (That likely describes a large percentage of eBay's listings.) A lot of people don't know that they themselves can find these very machines locally for $10 - $50 bucks and learn to oil and maintain them for the cost of several hours of online research and reading the manual. And eBay sellers like this one are cashing in. That's not a moral judgment, that's simply an objective observation.
Moreover, any discussion of vintage machines is going to involve prices from time to time. Until QB moderators inform me otherwise, I will continue to assume the topic is fair game, i.e. to discuss how much I paid or expect to pay for a machine, how much a typical machine of a certain make/model earns in my area, etc. This entire thread is in part devoted either directly or indirectly to this very subject: for amusement, posting listings for machines whose prices don't remotely reflect what's being sold (as well as other listings such as great deals, unusual machines, strange listings, etc.).
Sorry to rant but I don't understand this 'circle-the-wagons' psychology here. If a seller of a machine posts on a public site (eBay/CL/GW), it's perfectly legitimate to point out what is right/wrong/indifferent about what they're doing on another public site (QB). And again, the eBay seller in question may be a very nice person in real life; this isn't personal at all. No personal animus, just professional critique. Were I to begin selling machines on public sites, I wouldn't be surprised to see my listings discussed. Free advertising, I guess. However, I would price and create my listings with the knowledge that I'm exposing my business practice to public scrutiny. It goes with the territory.
/rant over
#2350
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