Thanksgiving dinner "are you a lady" conversation
11-26-2009, 06:23 PM
#11
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Originally Posted by Lisanne
I've thought of myself as a feminist ever since I learned the word at about twelve years old. By that, I mean only that I think men and women are equals, are equally capable of almost everything, and should have equal rights under the law. It doesn't mean being mannish, and it doesn't mean not doing or enjoying things that are traditionally feminine. It does mean that I can wear jeans or dresses, spend time quilting or woodworking.
When two people are going through a door at the same time, whoever is in the most convenient position to hold it open should do so for the other person, regardless of gender, IMO. There are exceptions, such as disability or when one of the people is laden down with packages. It's very annoying when a guy pushes his way in front of me just so he can hold the door for me. Or standing in the doorway so that I have to squeeze past him to get through. I've been yelled at and called names when I've gone through an adjacent door instead or asked the guy to go through instead of squeezing by him. Where are the manners in that???
OTOH, when a man knows how to do it right and does it with that certain something that lets me know he's doing it as a gentleman would for a lady, I find that delightful. (Then again, I don't have the patience to wait for someone to walk around and open a car door for me. I'd rather just get out myself.)
The whole idea of treating a woman like a lady is kind of formal. Overall I'm a pretty casual person and wouldn't require that in any relationship. But I think that's a matter of individual preference. Treating me with respect and decency is a whole other thing, though - that is required.
And it's reciprocal. Women can't demand or expect to be treated like a lady or with respect without doing the same to the man (uh, treating him like a gentleman).
As far as what happened with your daughter, the guy was wrong. If the cousins wanted a night out, they should have arranged it beforehand. Since he had other plans, he should have kept them. I doubt this was a case of wanting to spend time with cousins not seen often, since he could see them the next day. Or arranged to meet up with them later on, or with your daughter, etc. This sounds like guys' night out to me.
It's up to your daughter to decide whether she wants to be treated like a lady or less formally, but she does need to decide what the limits are and let him know.
When two people are going through a door at the same time, whoever is in the most convenient position to hold it open should do so for the other person, regardless of gender, IMO. There are exceptions, such as disability or when one of the people is laden down with packages. It's very annoying when a guy pushes his way in front of me just so he can hold the door for me. Or standing in the doorway so that I have to squeeze past him to get through. I've been yelled at and called names when I've gone through an adjacent door instead or asked the guy to go through instead of squeezing by him. Where are the manners in that???
OTOH, when a man knows how to do it right and does it with that certain something that lets me know he's doing it as a gentleman would for a lady, I find that delightful. (Then again, I don't have the patience to wait for someone to walk around and open a car door for me. I'd rather just get out myself.)
The whole idea of treating a woman like a lady is kind of formal. Overall I'm a pretty casual person and wouldn't require that in any relationship. But I think that's a matter of individual preference. Treating me with respect and decency is a whole other thing, though - that is required.
And it's reciprocal. Women can't demand or expect to be treated like a lady or with respect without doing the same to the man (uh, treating him like a gentleman).
As far as what happened with your daughter, the guy was wrong. If the cousins wanted a night out, they should have arranged it beforehand. Since he had other plans, he should have kept them. I doubt this was a case of wanting to spend time with cousins not seen often, since he could see them the next day. Or arranged to meet up with them later on, or with your daughter, etc. This sounds like guys' night out to me.
It's up to your daughter to decide whether she wants to be treated like a lady or less formally, but she does need to decide what the limits are and let him know.
DorothyNellFowler I agree with you. On my first date with DH he got out of the truck at the movies. I sat in the cab. He walked to the back of the truck and waited. I waited, He looked back several times then the light buld went off (5 mins later) he walked around and opened the door for me. I never said a word and never had to wait again. He treats me like a princess cause I let him know in my own way that it is what I wanted. It seems girls today allow guys to treat them badly, they then IMO have no room to complain about it. There is a guy out there that will treat her well she just needs to feel like she is worthy of that treatment.
11-26-2009, 06:37 PM
#12
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I taught my boys to be gentlemen. My one son even tells people that Mom would stand outside and freeze to death if he didn't open the door for her. Expecting courtesy is never a sign of weakness or high maintenence.
11-26-2009, 06:39 PM
#14
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I don't know if I would describe myself as a "feminist"...as I think the term is sometimes misused. I am just terminally and thoroughly an independent person (maybe I am a "personist"!). I had a radical feminist (her description) friend many years ago, who kept her name after marriage, drew up a list of chores to be shared, each did their own ironing and split the cleaning roster. Sounds fair...hm..but when it came to cleaning blocked drains, unclogging the toilet or lawn mowing...that was his job. So I thought it was a bit one-sided.
It all comes down to being a fair and honourable person, rather than a gender thing. This boy's treatment of your daughter, was unfair, dishonourable and rude, it's not just a boy/man thing...just poor behaviour. I don't have daughters, but have mentored many young women in the workplace. I never allowed them to pull any "precious princess" stuff and any mundane or dirty jobs were shared equally amongst the staff, gender was not used as an excuse to avoid getting your hands dirty or getting out of kitchen duty or putting out the bins.
As Lisane said you don't have to lose your femininity or looks or develop "manly" habits to be a strong woman. My mother was a total knockout when she was young....gorgeous looks, painted nails and she always worked in fashion. As I grew up I have watched (and helped) her lay bricks, build fences, paint, decorate and renovate and once she even sunk a bore (water well). She is almost 70 now and though retired, still does her own decorating, mows lawns and helps my sister with building projects. She still can't cook...but of an evening she sews or knits and reads the most woeful romance novels...
In conclusion, I think we should all just focus on being good and honourable people. People of both genders should pull their weight, be considerate of others and treasure people for who they are, not what they look like, or what they do for a living. I guess it's just manners really.
It all comes down to being a fair and honourable person, rather than a gender thing. This boy's treatment of your daughter, was unfair, dishonourable and rude, it's not just a boy/man thing...just poor behaviour. I don't have daughters, but have mentored many young women in the workplace. I never allowed them to pull any "precious princess" stuff and any mundane or dirty jobs were shared equally amongst the staff, gender was not used as an excuse to avoid getting your hands dirty or getting out of kitchen duty or putting out the bins.
As Lisane said you don't have to lose your femininity or looks or develop "manly" habits to be a strong woman. My mother was a total knockout when she was young....gorgeous looks, painted nails and she always worked in fashion. As I grew up I have watched (and helped) her lay bricks, build fences, paint, decorate and renovate and once she even sunk a bore (water well). She is almost 70 now and though retired, still does her own decorating, mows lawns and helps my sister with building projects. She still can't cook...but of an evening she sews or knits and reads the most woeful romance novels...
In conclusion, I think we should all just focus on being good and honourable people. People of both genders should pull their weight, be considerate of others and treasure people for who they are, not what they look like, or what they do for a living. I guess it's just manners really.
11-26-2009, 07:16 PM
#15
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Originally Posted by Pats8e8
I taught my boys to be gentlemen. My one son even tells people that Mom would stand outside and freeze to death if he didn't open the door for her. Expecting courtesy is never a sign of weakness or high maintenence.
At age 20, my step-son drove 1 1/2 hours from where he was going to college to come visit me for a manners and etiquette lesson!! His mom hadn't taught him even simple things like how to hold a knife and fork correctly!!! He left in time to pick up a young gal for a DQ date. He called me that evening to tell me that the gal was very impressed with the "door holding".
My step-daughter is 18...and learning how to date. I am so pleased that she feels close enough to me to ask my advice about boys, and why they do the things they do!! LOL She is a strong young lady, and I think she will not allow any guy to "walk all over her".
I'm glad your daughter is standing up for herself with this young fella. I hope he "gets the message". And you are right...when the time is right, there will be the right young man for her.
11-26-2009, 08:32 PM
#16
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This young man was rude and thoughtless. Though he did phone her and let her know he was standing her up (jerk). Unless he does a big U-turn one can only imagine what a relationship with this guy would be like. It would be very hard to trust him after this deal since what he decided to do was more important to him than her and/or her feelings. Hopefully he won't end up being your son-in-law. :(
11-26-2009, 08:47 PM
#17
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May I offer a few thoughts from the male side?
K, I think you were exactly correct in what you told your daughter, and I applaud her for how she responded when he contacted her again. Good for her! :)
I hold doors open for both women and men following behind me from a distance. If I'm approaching a door with a female companion, then I reach for the door to allow her through first.
When being introduced to a woman, I don't extend my hand to shake hands unless she does so first. I've just always felt it was being "forward" to take a woman's hand without her offering it first. With men however, I'll readily extend a handshake first. Maybe that's sexist, I dunno. :?:
Also, at work if I have a meeting scheduled with someone and it's a female employee and only the two of us, I will leave the door open in the meeting room. I've just never felt comfortable being in an enclosed room with a female "unchaperoned" as it were. I feel it's as much to protect her character as it is mine. It doesn't bother me with a male colleague, though. Again, maybe I'm being sexist in that. :?:
K, I think you were exactly correct in what you told your daughter, and I applaud her for how she responded when he contacted her again. Good for her! :)
I hold doors open for both women and men following behind me from a distance. If I'm approaching a door with a female companion, then I reach for the door to allow her through first.
When being introduced to a woman, I don't extend my hand to shake hands unless she does so first. I've just always felt it was being "forward" to take a woman's hand without her offering it first. With men however, I'll readily extend a handshake first. Maybe that's sexist, I dunno. :?:
Also, at work if I have a meeting scheduled with someone and it's a female employee and only the two of us, I will leave the door open in the meeting room. I've just never felt comfortable being in an enclosed room with a female "unchaperoned" as it were. I feel it's as much to protect her character as it is mine. It doesn't bother me with a male colleague, though. Again, maybe I'm being sexist in that. :?:
11-26-2009, 09:02 PM
#18
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Thank you Thank you Thank you Eddie for commenting. I hoped at least one of our male quilters would. I am so glad I am not off base with this. A woman can be treated like a lady AND be strong and equal in a relationship.
11-26-2009, 10:11 PM
#19
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I do think that over-all behavior is what really matters.
If this was a one-time lapse on the part of the guy and he's normally decent, maybe give him another chance. He's a young pup yet -
If he is usually/frequently thoughtless and exhibits undesirable behavior, then don't date the person. One doesn't need to put up with that kind of stuff.
There are such things as "diamonds in the rough" - just gotta make sure that there really is a diamond in there.
If this was a one-time lapse on the part of the guy and he's normally decent, maybe give him another chance. He's a young pup yet -
If he is usually/frequently thoughtless and exhibits undesirable behavior, then don't date the person. One doesn't need to put up with that kind of stuff.
There are such things as "diamonds in the rough" - just gotta make sure that there really is a diamond in there.
11-26-2009, 10:29 PM
#20
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Isn't this the second time he has blown her off? I would not put up with that the first time unless it was due to being called in to work, illness, accident or a death...and I raised my daughters to think that way too!!! They knew that if they did not demand respect, then they would never receive it. My girls were taught if the date was late, they were NOT available when he did show. I had no problem telling him that!!! AND why...
My son was raised to treat women with respect. I taught him to open doors for women, and if they don't wish him too, if he is in doubt with how a date will respond to that, to ask her. But he also knows to hold it so that they can easily pass by him. I told him to be early, even if it meant parking down the road and waiting for a few minutes. He will tell you to this day, if he ever disrespected any woman, mama would clean his clock!!!
But they were also taught to respect others, too. It is a 2 way street. :wink:
My son was raised to treat women with respect. I taught him to open doors for women, and if they don't wish him too, if he is in doubt with how a date will respond to that, to ask her. But he also knows to hold it so that they can easily pass by him. I told him to be early, even if it meant parking down the road and waiting for a few minutes. He will tell you to this day, if he ever disrespected any woman, mama would clean his clock!!!
But they were also taught to respect others, too. It is a 2 way street. :wink:
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