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Thread: More discusion about copyright issues

  1. #51
    Super Member nstitches4u's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsister63 View Post
    I recently bought a book of craft patterns and saw one that I thought I would like to make and sell on etsy. The book had the usual "copyright" statements and that you needed permission for whatever. I though that this meant pernission from the the pattern designer to make and SELL her item. I contacted the the designer and was told NO I could not sell her item on etsy since she also sells this item.(I could make for personal use) I did not make this item to sell on etsy. Questions- Could I have sold this item at another place since designer would not know?. Should I have made it anyway since copyright rules may not apply? Or could I have altered the pattern slightly and still claimed it as my own design? Comments? I am not exactly sure what the copyright statesment were since I returned the book to Amazon since I was not going to use it.
    I think I would have done the same thing. I won't buy a pattern if I can't use it to make items for sale. The price of patterns is so high that I can't justify buying them to make once for myself and then packing them away. I don't want several quilts made from the same pattern. I like variety. Designers are going to copyright themselves out of business.

    When my grandsons were little I bought a Brother Ult 2001 Disney embroidery and sewing machine. The built-in Disney designs were really cute. The boys soon outgrew the cutsie Disney designs and since Disney copyright prohibited sale of any items using the designs, I traded the Brother machine in on a Babylock Esante. It had lots of beautiful designs without strangling copyright issues. I don't think Brother has designs on their machines that have such restrictions now.

  2. #52
    Super Member katesnanna's Avatar
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    My understanding is that the words and directions are copyrighted but you may sell things made using a pattern as long as you aren't mass producing. How would these designers make any money if we didn't buy their patterns. When I rang the copyright office here in Australia I was told if I had paid for the pattern I had also paid for limited license as well. As others have said if the don't want us using them don't sell them in the public domain.

  3. #53
    Super Member Christine-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMCDA View Post
    You buy ONE pattern = you can make ONE of whatever the pattern is for your own personal use and enjoyment/enlightenment/education... or a FEW of each item as long as they are intended for your own personal use and enjoyment.
    For your own personal use and enjoyment and/or education is the key here - the designers are not selling the patterns for you to turn around and create income from them - they are selling you the right to make a copy of the item that they probably put years of hard work, time and creativity into the making of the original.
    Purchasing a pattern with the intention of creating for resale/income and then selling the items you create from the pattern is an infringement of copyright...only the copyright holder has the legal rights and ability to create income from her/his intellectual property.
    Are you in the USA? If so, you're well meaning, I'm sure. You are wrong. Period. Even if you put the words " for personal use only" on your package, you have no legal basis to claim this 'rule' as part of your copyright. Read the "First Use Doctrine" which specifies what the copyright holder can and cannot do with a sewing pattern. You can NOT make any of the claims you wrote in your post. The Federal Trade Commission enforces the First Use Doctrine to protect consumers from unscrupulous copyright holders.
    https://quiltdasher.blogspot.com

    I like to make lists. I also like to leave them laying on my sewing table and then guess what's on the list while at the fabric store. Fun game.

  4. #54
    Super Member Christine-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaciqltznok View Post
    with all due respect, this is NOT always the case. If that person sells a pattern for you to make her "doll" and says that you can not make that doll to sell, she is correct...IF the designer own the Pattent/Trademark for that "doll"!
    When there is a Trademark/patent on the item, then yes, the designer can tell you that making replica's for sale is illegal!
    jaciqltznok, you're confused about the issue here. You are well meaning and I know you're trying to help clear the confusion. I hope I can help! The ladies are having a conversation about copyrights. But when you join in to disagree with the ladies about 'oranges', you disagree, telling the ladies they can't do such and such with "apples". Let me see if I can simplify it... The ladies mention you can't put a rule on your pattern that says "you may squeeze this orange into only a yellow glass". You join in to disagree, saying "yes you can cut a apple on a cutting board." I hope this helps you see that the discussion about patents and trademarks (by the way, these are also entirely different things, you can't possibly compare either one of them to what you are allowed with a copyright) doesn't belong in a discussion about copyright issues. They are completely different. I hope this helps! I see you getting very frustrated and I'm hoping to help, not offend!

    With patents, a patent holder would NEVER create directions for someone else to make something resembling their item. The patent protects and controls that only, for example, IBM can make such and such item. IBM would NEVER create instructions to teach someone else how to create their item.

    With trademarks... these have NOTHING to do with paper directions of any kind. A trademark is a piece of artwork or logo or possibly a name. For example, the pantone color number for the brown UPS trucks is a trademark of UPS. No other company or person can use that exact color number for anything.

    In other words... no sane designer would ever patent a doll or quilt pattern. And no sane designer would 'trademark a pattern to create a quilt or a doll. If they did, it would be impossible to sell to another person.

    Again, I hope this helps.
    Last edited by Christine-; 04-14-2012 at 08:32 PM.
    https://quiltdasher.blogspot.com

    I like to make lists. I also like to leave them laying on my sewing table and then guess what's on the list while at the fabric store. Fun game.

  5. #55
    Super Member carolaug's Avatar
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    Agree..,so sad....
    Quote Originally Posted by happysteve View Post
    Whatever happened to sharing the joys of life with others? Seems many are just in it to make a profit. . what a shame.

  6. #56
    Super Member ghostrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christine- View Post
    Are you in the USA? If so, you're well meaning, I'm sure. You are wrong. Period. Even if you put the words " for personal use only" on your package, you have no legal basis to claim this 'rule' as part of your copyright. Read the "First Use Doctrine" which specifies what the copyright holder can and cannot do with a sewing pattern. You can NOT make any of the claims you wrote in your post. The Federal Trade Commission enforces the First Use Doctrine to protect consumers from unscrupulous copyright holders.
    No, that poster is in Canada. Canadian copyright law is much more protective of the copyright holder, based on the principle that whomever creates a work controls how that work is used. Canadian copyright law gives the copyright owner the right to set a fee and conditions for every use of the work.

    However, if a work created in one country is used in another country, then the laws of that country (the country of the user) apply. Therefore, no reason at all for US quilters to worry about where a pattern originated...US copyright law will apply for all of them.
    The Earth without art is just "Eh".

  7. #57
    Super Member coopah's Avatar
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    This arguing and worrying the issue takes all the fun out of buying a pattern, getting fabric to make it, producing it, and giving it to a happy recipient. As I said ONLY THE LAWYERS COME OUT AHEAD ON THIS​! I'm not reading anymore copyright blogs. They make me too angry. What happened to the days when our great grams shared patterns made out of cardboard or from a newspaper pattern. Good grief.

  8. #58
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    Canadian Copyright law protects creative endeavours by ensuring that the creator has the sole right to authorize their publication, performance or reproduction (section 3(1)).

    Which is the same as the US. I'm not finding what you are talking about. Do you have the statute number? A copyright owner in the US can set a fee and condition - it's called a contract. Generally restrictions upon use have to be stated and agreed to before a purchase.

  9. #59
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    christine- Are you saying all quilters/designers are crazy!!!!!!!!!Oh course we are!!!!!!! (I speak for myself!)

  10. #60
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    I agree that this is the way it should be but some people only care about money

  11. #61
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    I am a cake decorator by trade. I do remember all of the stink caused many years ago by big corps like Disney with bakeries copying their images which is by the way now non-existent (they simply don't bother any more) as the options for bakeries had expanded over the years via the use of the little plastic toys made just to place on cakes & the use of edible images.
    BUT I do remember one thing that our bakery, as well as many others out there looked into the copy-right laws. In order to "break" a copy right there must be 7 changes from the original picture (pattern) and what you have made. In other words, I can take a customer's picture of Mickey mouse, change his hat, change the direction his eyes are looking, change the buttons on his pants, his shoes.....
    If bakeries could fight large corporations to the point of making them stop suing bakeries via this method I can't see why it wouldn't work elsewhere.
    Personally, if I stumbled across a pattern that I wanted & saw a big old "COPYRIGHT" label on it...I wouldn't buy it.

  12. #62
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    But Disney characters are protected by trademarks, not copyright.

  13. #63
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    They are not only trademarked, they are in fact protected by copyrite.

    http://corporate.disney.go.com/corporate/terms.html


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJn_jC4FNDo

  14. #64
    Super Member alwayslearning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lillybeck View Post
    To me I feel that if it was published then the copyright was no longer valid. Once you make something pubic then it is yours to do with as you please. Telling you not to sell on Etsy because she sells it on there is like you telling me not to sell my stove in a yard sale because you have a stove in a yardsale, Just my thoughts.
    The reason someone gets a copyright is so they can publish it and gain income from it. Think of an author.
    "Only those who know enough is enough can ever have enough." Lao Tzu

  15. #65
    Super Member Christine-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristi.G View Post
    But Disney characters are protected by trademarks, not copyright.
    That's right, Disney characters would be protected by a trademark. That's why there is a license attached to every Disney fabric or craft item we may choose to buy. (I'm sure there are copyrights as well, but for the sake of this arguement I'll leave that alone...LOL)

    An acquaintance of mine has a brother who is an attorney for Disney. She said he has a chuckle when the hot n' heavy debates start up mentioning gossip about the little old lady who was sued by Disney for selling baby clothes she made using Disney fabric. He says "big bad Disney is at it again". In other words, it's a hoax.

    And I agree that copyright debates simply spoil all the fun of buying patterns. Most designers understand this and avoid the debates. They are true business people, who understand the truth about copyright issues, and more importantly, they understand it's not wise to bite the hand that feeds them by adding silly restrictions they don't have the right to add in the first place. They understand it is harrassment of the consumer and it needs to stop.

    Do you remember back in the 70s & 80s when knitting was all the rage? There were cheap plastic machines you could buy and all types of yarn, it was a huge business back then. But in the early 80s the pattern designers began public debates about all the copyright issues. There was heated debate in stores, during classes, knitting magazines published 'rules' continuously which led to discussion among knitting groups, clubs and guilds. Some of the debate was fair, since some of the women made copies of patterns to share with all their friends. But most of the debate was heated, with angry words. Slowly, through the early 80s all the fighting caused women to withdraw and pursue other hobbies and the knitting industry died out. The knitting pattern designers shot themselves in the foot with all the fighting.

    In the 90s the same thing happened with the machine embroidery designs industry among the designers. In fact, look at the stats for any machine embroidery chat list on yahoogroups and look at the number of messages sent month to month each year. In EVERY chat list you see the messages with high numbers in the early years and then the messages slowly died out about 5 or 6 years ago. All because of the fighting! The designers lost business, put their designs 'on sale' to try and drum up business and then one by one they went out of business. After a certain 'copyright cop' filed a lawsuit in federal court, the judges declared the copyright cops were wrong (to put it in simpler terms) and that was that. But by then the buying public was fed up with all the fighting, they had disappeared. Fed up with the designers, they went elsewhere.

    It could possibly happen to the quilt pattern businesses as well... except that the sane pattern designers are telling those with overactive egos where they are wrong.... and slowly the sane designers are helping squash all the false information flying around out there. Conversations like those on quilting board ARE helping! So if you can stand it a little longer, perhaps over the course of the next 3-5 years slowly they'll get the word out and the fighting will die down.

    I hope this helps!!!
    Last edited by Christine-; 04-15-2012 at 06:57 AM.
    https://quiltdasher.blogspot.com

    I like to make lists. I also like to leave them laying on my sewing table and then guess what's on the list while at the fabric store. Fun game.

  16. #66
    Super Member Christine-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsister63 View Post
    christine- Are you saying all quilters/designers are crazy!!!!!!!!!Oh course we are!!!!!!! (I speak for myself!)
    We have to be crazy! Otherwise we couldn't keep our sanity! LOL
    https://quiltdasher.blogspot.com

    I like to make lists. I also like to leave them laying on my sewing table and then guess what's on the list while at the fabric store. Fun game.

  17. #67
    Super Member Dodie's Avatar
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    well said coopah I for one am so sick of these pattern makers and their greed who needs them one thing I have all of the quilting magazines published in the 1970's and 80's and not a word was ever said about copyright it was all about sharing I took many classes from the famous quilters of that time all was photo copied hand outs their books was optional back then quilting was fun and a good get together now it has turned it to a dog eat dog world and I do believe the only reason some people even go to quilt shows is to see how they can make trouble I also use to subscribe to every magazine out there now I want absolutely none of them if I can't sew for fun who needs it sorry for my rant but I am fed up with this so called copyright that means nothing no one has yet answered my question on how someone can steal Bethany Reynolds pattern and
    not be breaking this so called copyright

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dodie View Post
    well said coopah I for one am so sick of these pattern makers and their greed who needs them one thing I have all of the quilting magazines published in the 1970's and 80's and not a word was ever said about copyright it was all about sharing I took many classes from the famous quilters of that time all was photo copied hand outs their books was optional back then quilting was fun and a good get together now it has turned it to a dog eat dog world and I do believe the only reason some people even go to quilt shows is to see how they can make trouble I also use to subscribe to every magazine out there now I want absolutely none of them if I can't sew for fun who needs it sorry for my rant but I am fed up with this so called copyright that means nothing no one has yet answered my question on how someone can steal Bethany Reynolds pattern and
    not be breaking this so called copyright
    this is an industry, thus it is ABOUT making money!
    As for Bethany Reynolds "pattern", her "patterns" are not original! They were making Kaleidoscope blocks many, many years before she was born! The only thing she did was create a technique using fabric repeats! and even that was not really original! So whomever you think "stole" from BR, probably just used the Kaleidoscope Kreator to create their own!
    http://www.kalcollections.com/

  19. #69
    Super Member k9dancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMCDA View Post
    You buy ONE pattern = you can make ONE of whatever the pattern is for your own personal use and enjoyment/enlightenment/education... or a FEW of each item as long as they are intended for your own personal use and enjoyment.

    For your own personal use and enjoyment and/or education is the key here - the designers are not selling the patterns for you to turn around and create income from them - they are selling you the right to make a copy of the item that they probably put years of hard work, time and creativity into the making of the original.

    The purchase price of the pattern is your cost to be allowed to share in their hard work...to be allowed to enjoy their creativity and make whatever they made to enjoy for yourself.

    Yes you may give your finished copy away without permission!
    Yes, you may sell your finished copy if somewhere down the road you decide that you don't like it, don't need it or for whatever reason it no longer fits into your life (just the same as you can sell or give away any other possession that you own)

    However:
    Purchasing a pattern with the intention of creating for resale/income and then selling the items you create from the pattern is an infringement of copyright...only the copyright holder has the legal rights and ability to create income from her/his intellectual property.
    Could you please cite the exact statute you are quoting?
    Stephanie in Mena

  20. #70
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    Let me cite these two examples. Some years ago one of the sewing machine companies digitized a series of truly original quilting designs and sold thousands of them........A direct copy. The designer sued and won.
    Another took an existing stencil which was also original and changed the middle and started manufacturing. Said they could do it because they had changed it 30%. The copyright attorney said no. As long as it can be recognized alongside the original it is a copy. He said there is no such things a changing it a certain percent....
    Another bought stencils and started marking and printing them as paper patterns. Even wrote a book and put them in the book. Sold dozens in every class. This is an issue that should be defined by a knowledge copyright attorney who knows our industry so we can stop the "10 blind men describing the elephant" method of deciding what is right and what is wrong. Many years ago I made a small tree wallhanging from half square triagles. Nothing special but I did it. The next year I saw a pattern at a show and said to the owner "that looks like my wallhanging that I showed at another show. She said "Yes that is where I saw it and got the inspiration to do a pattern".......So to say "its out of control, just ignore it" is not the answer. It is not only the courteous act to ask by may the legal thing to do.
    We need a defination of what those words on the selvedge really mean. And designers need to stop putting a copyright on every nine patch pattern they "design", unless there is something very unique about it, which I can't imagine what it is. If the copyright means one can't copy the pattern and sell it or share......that is one thing.....or copy the instructions and pass it out free in a class or to their guild, then that is another. Now off the soap box.

  21. #71
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    Iam not confussed. A copyright applies to the method in which the pattern is put together: ie-=10 min. quilt blocks. there is nothing new under the sun.====geometricly a block is a block and and triangle is a triangle. all has been copyrighted hundreds of years ago. so only the new fabric with the certain design can be copy righted. You people out there can fight and sue each other all you want but and that is a big but-----all kinds of extending type circumstances exist for a geometric design. See the Greeks in the 700's for designs. You print and sell a design it is yours you paid for it like buying a car or a piece of furniture, like the lady said Is my stove copyrighted????? can't sell it cause the lady across the street is selling her----------don't think so!..... Just check the method of putting the blks together as far as copyright goes. And that is mostlikely why I cannot find the fabric I like----they only make 1 copyright bolt and sell it and thats that.????

  22. #72
    Super Member Dodie's Avatar
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    after all of this copyright garbage I have decided I do not need any of their patterns books or magazines I have a big supply from the 1980's when the book writers and pattern makers were proud of their work and very pleased to see someone who liked them enough to buy the fabric to make them in those days I really respected those people but in this day and age and the greed I have lost my respect for them and if you really want to see some good patterns and magazine articles just check out some of those older ones this new stuff with their greed and selfishness cannot hold a candle to the quilters past

  23. #73
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    I don't have a supply of anything as I just began sewing again a few years ago & was only strictly making parrot quilts. I learned the basics when I was around 10 years old by going to work with my Father, who worked for singer just about all his life until they started shutting their stores down but I am learning a lot from this board! (Note to self...pick up my Singer 301 at Mom's house!) I have never even considered looking online or in fabric stores for quilt patterns as there is just sooo much to see on here with the many people who do share their tips, hints, patterns & such.
    10 years later, I learned how to make a trip around the world quilt from my x hubby's grandmother. 30 more years later, I resumed again, making the parrot quilts for fundraisers for a real nasty parrot disease that had killed many of my birds. It was therapy.
    I have had many, many people write me & ask me if they could have a copy of the patterns & if there was any way I could copy them I gladly would but once I have drawn the bird & cut it out, I am left with as many as 10-12 little scraps of paper per bird! All of their pieces (well, most) are marked with color, but many are not. Once I am done with 1 bird pattern, I pin the pieces together with no identifying markings as to breed. The box I keep them in is just a jumble of paper with pins in it. Some are even very hard for me to remember how to put them back together once I cut them out again for another if there were many colors. It's easier for me to offer to tell them how I came up with the patterns, or if it is an official non-profit organization, I'll make one for them. I'm also doing some quilts for kids quilts, another thing I would have never known about had I not found this board. I guess sometimes it's best not to look any further than your own back yard, which is kinda what this board feels like with the many talented, helpful hands on here

  24. #74
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    What I do is change the pattern up a little bit. Then I can do what I want too. Sorry but I pay 10$ to 15$ a pattern I should be able to do what I want. So yes I am BAD!!!!!!!!!

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    Just for giggles, (for those of you thinking "no one can be THAT messy!") a picture of my "pattern box" The one to the right has not been cut yet is a black headed caique that will be cut into 9 pieces plus 3 more pieces for the eye & feet.
    Name:  P041512_1905.jpg
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