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Thread: More discusion about copyright issues

  1. #76
    Super Member BarbaraSue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaciqltznok View Post
    Brenda did NOT lose...she won when the lady had to change the name of the quilt!
    This is splitting hairs. Brenda most certainly did loose. She could NOT keep the woman from selling the finished quilt, the product of the pattern purchased. The ONLY thing she could do was prevent use of the Name of the quilt.

    So, her copyright did not prevent anyone from selling a quilt made from the pattern that was purchased because she cannnot control the outcome of the finished product of a purchased pattern. She could only say "you can't call it what I called it".
    That is not winning the case when she wanted to control the finished product of a purchased pattern.

    Whether you like taberone or not, her site gives the cases and results of those cases that the copyright.gov tolk about but does not explain very well.

    Most of the these cases do not go to court because too many souls out there will not stand up for their rights. The designers get a lawyer to send a letter to intimidate the seller and threaten with suits and $$$ so the rightfully selling party backs off and allow the designer to continue believing that they can control everything they've thought of since sliced bread. The designers must have a Patent to do this, not a copyright. And, there is no copyright on intelligence, and creativity. That is pure gibberish, and enflated ego.

    If more quilters would realize that copyright ande patent are not the same things, and stand firm on their right to make a quilt according to a pattern, and sell it, or give it away, the designers' power would wane.
    To make lots of quilts, is to have lots of scraps, and I do, and I do.
    BarbaraSue

  2. #77
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    another case related to stencils. The legal requirement for using a copyrighted stencil on a customers quilts required the stencil be purchased by or for the owner of the quilt. then it was his or her stencil that could be used on his or her quilt. Rather than do the right thing and build in the cost of the stencil and give it back to the quiltmaker.......qulters moaned and groaned about it and said it was not right........
    If you take the pattern of my Avatar and make a quilt and display it for the world...it technically and legally is my design and not yours. Who should get the credit or at least the mention of credit.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by cherokeerose View Post
    How does a person obtain a copyright? Is it done on each pattern/design? I would think there is some type of paperwork or something they have to do to get the copyright.

    How do we know if there is truly a legal copyright on a design/pattern or if someone is just stating they have a copyright.
    Good question. As an example, how was Candlequilter able to copy the block from a quilt displayed on here, create the block in EQ7, call it the Candlequilter Star, then get it copyrighted? I am sure I am missing something here and I apologize for not reading every post on the Board to figure this copyright stuff out. Thanks for everyone giving us the heads-up on it.

  4. #79
    Super Member LindaMRB's Avatar
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    Some sites have lots of designs that are free. You have to read everything and I just opt for the old/non-copyrighted ones. In any case, I don't sell mine so have little to worry about right now.

    Also, if you alter a quilt and they can identify the source, then you can be in trouble. You really have to alter it a lot.
    From another quilter here:
    "If your pattern came from somebody else's pattern you saw it is still theirs--is the way I understand it. The IDEA came from 'their hard work....' ..."

    Also, you do not have to get a copyright # on an item/idea whatever if you don't want to. The question is ONLY if you want to argue it and you have to prove you did it first.
    And if you do register it with the patent office, you have the jump on someone but still have to prove it in order to sue or get compensation.

    I think it is nuts. There is very little NEW under the sun anyway. Not that I think anyone and everyone should take and not give credit where credit is due. It's just that if you publish a book of patterns, then let people name their source and then, IMHO, sell it and claim with materials and work they did and their interpretation of the pattern.

    Right now a friend of mine is having trouble with folks who download her images (photography) and share and do not link back to her so she gets credit and eventually payment for any image used. She has a couple images on Getty images and someone there sued Getty for a photo within a photo that was copyrighted...

  5. #80
    Senior Member GramMER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dodie View Post
    after all of this copyright garbage I have decided I do not need any of their patterns books or magazines I have a big supply from the 1980's when the book writers and pattern makers were proud of their work and very pleased to see someone who liked them enough to buy the fabric to make them in those days I really respected those people but in this day and age and the greed I have lost my respect for them and if you really want to see some good patterns and magazine articles just check out some of those older ones this new stuff with their greed and selfishness cannot hold a candle to the quilters past
    I had a look at Bonnie Hunter's website and found she has a very sensible copyright statement. As I was reading other messages about copyright, I was surprised to see that some demand you cannot sell the product you produce with their free pattern. That is insane. There is one lady I know who has a daily mailing list and she sends quite a few cute pictures, music, and links to encourage everyone; however, she has a nasty copyright statement that says you better not forward anything from her message without including her name! She did not invent those things, she merely collects them from the www. The links belong to someone else, so how could she have a copyright at all?

    Anyway, off my soap box now and want to send you a very friendly copyright statement from Bonnie:
    *Note* You may print the patterns from this website for your own use! Feel free to share them with your friends. I encourage you to use the patterns to teach a class, make quilts to sell, to donate to charity and exhibit in your guild quilt shows! However, just because the patterns here are free for your use, does not mean you can use them with the intent to sell the patterns themselves. Please respect copyright policy and keep the pieceful spirit of quilting alive and well!
    GramMER to eighteen, plus two great-granddaughters and four adopted greats soon we hope!

  6. #81
    Super Member GrannieAnnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dixie_fried View Post
    If one were to read and understand the government copyright website (and I have read it...), one would come to know that utilitarian items such as quilts and clothing are not eligible for copyright protection. They are not considered by our governing bodies to be works of art, so comparing the two is moot. This is not to imply that we, as quilters should not love and cherish our own quilts as artistic...it just means the government sees them as simple utilitarian items.

    "Designs" as mentioned in the government copyright website only apply to the designs of ship hulls. The fashion and clothing/accessory industries lobbied to get their items covered under copyright protection, and it was the opinion of the Supreme court that allowing fashion designers protection under the law was not feasible. This is why it's commonplace to be able to buy a knock-off red carpet dress the day after it's seen on television.

    Here is the issue I challenged during the last great copyright debate, and it still stands:
    "And if you can find citation of a court case where someone was actually held accountable for selling an item made from a pattern that they bought, I will eat this laptop, piece by piece."
    Yipee! It has gone to court!
    Bad Spellers of the World
    U N T I E

  7. #82
    Super Member Christine-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dodie View Post
    after all of this copyright garbage I have decided I do not need any of their patterns books or magazines
    Unfortunately, the fighting paints a broad brush over all pattern designers. It's really only a few pattern designers with their knickers in a wad. Don't give up on pattern designers, even those with the problem restrictions. Those few will begin to see the light eventually... and get the ironing board out to iron the wrinkles in their knickers. We should learn to forgive and pay it forward! Who knows, I may be the person who needs the ironing board the next time. LOL
    https://quiltdasher.blogspot.com

    I like to make lists. I also like to leave them laying on my sewing table and then guess what's on the list while at the fabric store. Fun game.

  8. #83
    Member FoxxyQuilter's Avatar
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    @ JMCDA and Lori S: thanks for the feedback! Also, I have to say 'thanks!' to everyone else commenting on this thread; I appreciate reading everyone's feedback, because it definitely helps me to wade through this whole copyright issue

  9. #84
    Super Member Christine-'s Avatar
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    To JMCDA.....

    I recognize you are an award winning published artist. Congratulations! (with an ego running amok, but that's my opinion.) You were right on the money with most of your copyright advice. But where you steered wrong was in your last 4 paragraphs. (shown after the snip, below)

    You are bullying the person buying your pattern by telling them your copyright requires them to ask for permission to earn income off of something they made using your pattern. You are placing an illegal requirement on the buyer, and this is not allowed according to a law called the First Use Doctrine. The copyright does NOT extend to the item made using the copyrighted pattern.

    Telling someone to get this permission in writing is like putting an agreement in writing between gang members and a local deli... "We'll let you sell sandwiches but you're going to pay us $300 weekly "insurance" to keep us from mugging your customers." How stupid are the local criminals to put this in writing???

    PLEASE CONTACT ME if anyone reading this has an actual WRITTEN permission slip from a quilt pattern designer extending their copyright & giving you permission to sell the finished items you created using that designers pattern. It would be useful in a lawsuit to get these ego driven ladies to deflate their ego long enough to read ALL the laws that protect consumers, not just the ones that pertain to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by JMCDA View Post
    I draw on a career of almost 30 yrs as an artist and art teacher. I am an award winning published fine artist by profession who also teaches and sells design packets to the Decorative art industry. .... [snip]

    If the copyright holder wishes to give permission to someone else to derive income from their pattern then they may do so if they wish - but you have to get specific permission outlining your intentions in writing for it to be valid...and to protect yourself!

    The eventual selling the "one off" copy that you made from the pattern that you purchased is not the same as selling items from a pattern that you purchased for the intention of using to make items to sell - the intention or motivation for the intitial purchase is totally different.

    In your experience, the copyright holder decided that you would be allowed to derive income from her pattern by selling items on Etsy...
    ...the next time you contact a designer - and please do so in writing not verbally for your own protection as a phone call is just a phone call- she may say no and you must respect her wishes, no way around it.

    if in doubt always ask for permission! Ignorance is not the best defence in any situation. Creative people deserve every chance they can find to create income from their creativity - otherwise they may have to give it up and get a real job...and then there won't be any pretty patterns for anyone to enjoy.
    Last edited by Christine-; 04-16-2012 at 02:12 PM.
    https://quiltdasher.blogspot.com

    I like to make lists. I also like to leave them laying on my sewing table and then guess what's on the list while at the fabric store. Fun game.

  10. #85
    Super Member Christine-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMCDA View Post
    [snip]
    >>> My daughter gifted me a couple of quilting books this past Christmas and I went and looked at what the copyright statement in both of them said which was "items made from these patterns are intended for personal, non-commerical use"

    JMCDA replied: seems pretty clear to me...personal use is intending to use the pattern for your own personal use and enjoyment. Commercial use is intending to use the patterns and instructions for the purpose of making money.
    I suppose if the book said "you may jump in a lake personally but you may not sell tickets to go jump in a lake" you would then go jump in a lake before using a pattern in the book?

    The restriction you found in the book, is it trying to claim their 'copyright' restricts you from selling items the buyer made using their book? If so... the copyright restriction is hogwash and should be ignored.
    https://quiltdasher.blogspot.com

    I like to make lists. I also like to leave them laying on my sewing table and then guess what's on the list while at the fabric store. Fun game.

  11. #86
    Super Member nhweaver's Avatar
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    I read this and the finished product of a purchased pattern is not restricted by copyright (why include a pattern and instructions unless you are enticing someone to make it). Only the pattern, or language cannot be copied. The finished product and what you do with the finished product is not something that is governed.

    Quote Originally Posted by jaciqltznok View Post
    If life gives you lemons, make a margarita.

  12. #87
    Super Member nstitches4u's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chay View Post
    Food for thought from Leah Day at the Free Motion Quilting Project entitled Copyright Terrorism:

    http://freemotionquilting.blogspot.c...terrorism.html
    Thanks for the link. Very interesting.

  13. #88
    Super Member Christine-'s Avatar
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    Leah Day's website is faaaabulous. She is one smart lady. Thank you for sharing her link!

    Originally Posted by Chay

    Food for thought from Leah Day at the Free Motion Quilting Project entitled Copyright Terrorism:
    http://freemotionquilting.blogspot.c...terrorism.html
    https://quiltdasher.blogspot.com

    I like to make lists. I also like to leave them laying on my sewing table and then guess what's on the list while at the fabric store. Fun game.

  14. #89
    Super Member Christine-'s Avatar
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    This is my philosophy in life....

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    https://quiltdasher.blogspot.com

    I like to make lists. I also like to leave them laying on my sewing table and then guess what's on the list while at the fabric store. Fun game.

  15. #90
    Power Poster earthwalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katesnanna View Post
    My understanding is that the words and directions are copyrighted but you may sell things made using a pattern as long as you aren't mass producing. How would these designers make any money if we didn't buy their patterns. When I rang the copyright office here in Australia I was told if I had paid for the pattern I had also paid for limited license as well. As others have said if the don't want us using them don't sell them in the public domain.
    Thanks katesnanna...was wondering how we Aussies stood on this issue. Don't think I'll ever make a profit from quilting...but didn't want to get in more trouble than Ned Kelly if I did make a few dollars.

  16. #91
    Junior Member oldbalt99's Avatar
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    Coptright infringment is not a tricky matter, yes legal, but not complicated! If a person puts in writing you may not use their pattern for sale you can't. It's the same thing with manuscripts, the exact same! No type of reasoning will make anyone using a copyright for profit legal. Ask a lawyer if you have questions!
    Nothing beats a try but a failure.
    We all fall short of the mark.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldbalt99 View Post
    Coptright infringment is not a tricky matter, yes legal, but not complicated! If a person puts in writing you may not use their pattern for sale you can't. It's the same thing with manuscripts, the exact same! No type of reasoning will make anyone using a copyright for profit legal. Ask a lawyer if you have questions!
    If you copied the pattern itself, it would be the same as a manuscript. Using the pattern to create a quilt and then profit from the quilt is a whole different matter. Copyright protects the words and images in the pattern document. It does not extend to physical items produced using the words and images.

  18. #93
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    I have contacted a number of designers, magazines and fabric places to ask re selling items made with their patterns. With one exception I have received approval (with the caveat 'as long as your not setting up a factory in China). After that and all the great information received here the conclusion I've reached is 'I'm no longer going to be overly concerned about getting permissions but will give credit to magazine and/or designer. if I ever get around to making something to sell. Usually mine never turn out exactly like the pattern anyway so if someone wants to get upset I can always apologize & try to make it right.
    Cheryl Robinson
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  19. #94
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    I hate to sound dumb here, but I'm gonna go ahead anyways.
    I have read all 10 pages and am just as confused as I was during the first post. I look at tons of patterns and blocks on-line and in numerous books, to get inspiration. Then if I see something that speaks to me, I figure out, on my own, how to make it. Most of the time, I never look up a pattern or tute for it, I do the math and graphing myself. But what I am getting from all this is: if I do follow through and make the item based off the inspiration project/pic/block/ etc.., that if I sell that item, I have now infinged on someone's work because they made it to begin with?? Tell me this is not so!! What is the point of even preserving the quilting tradition, if not for inspiration and to keep quilting alive?
    I used to visit a well-known site several hours at a sitting, several days a week. I happened to see a block on that site that I had spent days "creating" on my own, before seeing it on her site. I did some digging on her site and found her copyright statement regarding using patterns on her site so I emailed her to ask if I could use it in a quilt I was making to sell, since I had spent days drafting it myself. I was told no, unless you can prove, without a doubt, that it is truly your design you are making to sell and not copying mine. ???What???
    Same type of thing with the Twister tool and quilts made from it. I read and followed a tute, on here, to make my own template but I only use 4" unfinished squares to start with and the "tool" I made is a 2 1/2" square. Imagine my surprise when I was told I can not sell these types of quilts either as I would be infringing on the Twister makers rights.
    So, I have just decided to make what I want to make, the way I want to make them and do what I choose with them. If someone wants to sue me because I was inspired enough to do the "designing" part of the work myself and not from their published patterns/books, then go for it! If I could afford the price of "patterns" to begin with I wouldn't have to do all that work myself! But, if that were the case then the satisfaction I get out of making it work so it all fits nicely would be gone and there would be no point.

  20. #95
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    Just because a quilt pattern maker tries to limit use of their pattern to hobby quilters beyond a standard copyright clause doesn't make it legal. And just because some magazine or blog suggested that you write the pattern maker for permission to use the pattern to sell a quilt or that you are required to "credit" the designer in writing doesn't mean you are legally bound to do so. When you buy a pattern from a designer, you haven't entered into a contract with them, you are only bound by laws and regulations.

    This whole issue makes me so mad. When someone makes the decision to profit from their designs by selling patterns they cannot control what the consumer does with the pattern, beyond prohibiting selling copies of the pattern itself or using it for mass production. They have given up exclusivity, it is no longer a one-of-a-kind design.

    I'm with those who have started reading the fine print. Even though I don't sew for profit, I will no longer buy any products from designers that attempt to limit usage beyond copyright or trademark license.

    P.S. I'm not a copyright or patent lawyer, so this is my opinion.
    Elizabeth

  21. #96
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    OK, to summarize, a bit late perhaps:

    1. A quilt pattern is NOT a registered trademark, brand name product or patented item and the laws concerning trademarks, brand names or patented inventions do not apply.

    2. Copyright means that an individual is forbidden to reproduce the words and images that constitute the contents of the pattern, without express permission of the copyright holder. The copyright holder has no authority over the product that is the result of the buyer's execution of the pattern-maker's instructions.

    3. Additional remarks by copyright holders limiting the use buyers may make of the finished results of the buyers' labors are abusive and have no legal standing.

    4. It is polite and intellectually honest to quote the name or source of the pattern creator when known.

    5. Actually making a quilt following someone's instructions is not plagiarism or stealing. The pattern-maker received the benefit of their work when they received monetary compensation as a result of selling their pattern.

    6. If you don't want someone to apply your technique for their own intellectual or material benefit, don't teach it to them. An actual technique cannot be copyrighted in its own right; only the words and images used to convey the technique can be copyrighted.

    I'm a bit late in the discussion, but this whole topic has been driving me crazy for weeks. The references to actual case law, government legislation websites and differences in national poliiey are enlightening and should dispel all the confusion, rumours and fear that seems to be surrounding this issue.
    Maggie in Jerusalem
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  22. #97
    Super Member Ruby the Quilter's Avatar
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    Interesting - discussion. I have seen the same pattern or almost the same with different names. So not sure how that works. I can see both sides -. Sounds like tradition patterns are the way to go to sell quilts.
    Quilting in the Desert

  23. #98
    Junior Member JenGaile's Avatar
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    After reading this and reading the copyright laws, it is clear that the PATTERN is copyrighted, not items made using the pattern.

    A good indicator of the above is the fact that quilt shops (several of which I visited during a trip to Ohio last month) make items using the patterns they sell, and then sell those made items in their shop. I think this clears up the confusion as to what is protected by a "copyright."

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