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Thread: Odd machine, does anyone recognise it?

  1. #1
    Super Member ArchaicArcane's Avatar
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    Odd machine, does anyone recognise it?

    Found this machine for sale about 2 hours from us. The seller said they thought it was a Singer, but the name's worn off.

    I'm reasonably sure it's not a Singer, but there are a few clues that make it look like I could be wrong.
    It looks german to me for some reason...

    Things like the way the thread take-up lever plate is secured, the style of the bobbin winder and the quality of the woodwork looks German to me.

    The serial number, the lock hardware and the presser foot tension look Singer-esque to me.

    The lack of a Singer badge makes me think not Singer... the stitch length looks wrong too, but I could swear I've seen "one" Singer like this, but i can't think of which one it is, and how do you Google that.

    Position of the treadle belt looks "wrong", but perhaps I'm looking at this machine like it's newer than it is?
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    Last edited by ArchaicArcane; 11-25-2012 at 09:35 PM.

  2. #2
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    It looks like there is a serial number by bobbin winder. That would be a clue. Does it work? It looks like it will be a lot of fun to use.

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    I think that I saw something that looked like this machine when I was surfing recently but don't remember where. The German aspect seems to ring a bell. I'll be interested in knowing whenever it is determined.

  4. #4
    Muv
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    Hello Tammi,

    Yes, it definitely looks German. Thank you for giving me the excuse to trawl through the picture library on Needlebar. Sorry, I can't find a model identical to it.

  5. #5
    Super Member ArchaicArcane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quiltingcandy View Post
    It looks like there is a serial number by bobbin winder. That would be a clue. Does it work? It looks like it will be a lot of fun to use.
    I asked him for the serial number. Haven't heard back yet. When I emailed him to say I really don't think it's a Singer, and that I thought it was German, we started a dialog. He's got it listed for $100, but says he'll give me a good deal on it. The ad says he thinks it works. I'd literally have to go and try it out. The thing is, I'm almost willing to bet that I don't have a needle for it,... my guess,.. Class 12, like my Winselmann. Yuck. Hard to get here, and I haven't felt rich enough to order some of them from the online sources yet. I'd love to be wrong though.

    Quote Originally Posted by blueheavenfla View Post
    I think that I saw something that looked like this machine when I was surfing recently but don't remember where. The German aspect seems to ring a bell. I'll be interested in knowing whenever it is determined.
    I'm having the same problem. I'm fairly sure I've seen the stitch length regulator, possibly even here on the QB, but how do you google "I saw this thing, it looks like this, and might have been german"...

    I asked him if we could drop by if we go through to Calgary next weekend, and take a look to see if I could figure it out, whether I took it or not, at least he might have more info to help him sell it. Of course, you know if I get it in my hands, it's a done deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muv View Post
    Hello Tammi,

    Yes, it definitely looks German. Thank you for giving me the excuse to trawl through the picture library on Needlebar. Sorry, I can't find a model identical to it.
    Hah! My pleasure! The closest I managed to come was the Frister and Rossman Model E which is the third last picture on this page: http://www.sewmuse.co.uk/frister.htm
    Still, not close enough.

    If I've stumped you though Muv, I'm wondering if I'll be able to figure it out at all. I've read your stuff about the German machines, that's possibly where I learned everything I know about them! BTW, I think my Winselmann thanks you for that.
    Last edited by ArchaicArcane; 11-26-2012 at 12:57 PM. Reason: third, not second

  6. #6
    Muv
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    Hello Tammi, I think this machine will probably take a standard needle.

  7. #7
    Super Member ArchaicArcane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muv View Post
    Hello Tammi, I think this machine will probably take a standard needle.
    Really? That would be great!!

    I got a response from the seller too:

    I had a look at the number on the machine and it is 992160<snip> there is a few needles in the side box and there is a shuttle in the machine, neither my wife or my self know much about sewing , but it was her mothers and she brought it over from Holland . It does have a lid ,but needs a little work done on it (locks don't work )
    The needles and lid are a good piece of news though.

    If it were a Singer serial number, it would be circa 1873, but there's no model information, so I can't even look that up to see what it would have looked like.

    The mystery remains unsolved for now.

  8. #8
    Muv
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    Tammi, It's not a Singer. When people refer to old machines as Singers they just say that because they are black. Happens all the time.

    There's no point in trying to relate the serial number to Singer numbers. The machine is a Vibrating Shuttle. They were not produced by Singer until the mid 1880s.

    I have gone through all the photos on Needlebar of other European machines and found no match. I still say it's German - I would be surprised to learn it was anything else.

  9. #9
    Senior Member pinkCastleDH's Avatar
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    Not saying Muv is wrong but the only ones I've found on Needlebar with that lever on the pillar for stitch length are British (Vickers) and Australian?!?!

    http://needlebar.org/cm~nb/displayim...lbum=257&pos=3

    http://needlebar.org/cm~nb/displayim...bum=337&pos=20

    http://needlebar.org/cm~nb/displayim...bum=411&pos=25

    http://needlebar.org/cm~nb/displayim...lbum=495&pos=8

  10. #10
    Super Member Glenda m's Avatar
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    What a mystery. Are you going to 'look?' Would also like to know what it is.
    You can get older, but you never have to grow up! Tomorrow's just a future yesterday!-Greg Fergerson

  11. #11
    Super Member ArchaicArcane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muv View Post
    Tammi, It's not a Singer. When people refer to old machines as Singers they just say that because they are black. Happens all the time.

    There's no point in trying to relate the serial number to Singer numbers. The machine is a Vibrating Shuttle. They were not produced by Singer until the mid 1880s.

    I have gone through all the photos on Needlebar of other European machines and found no match. I still say it's German - I would be surprised to learn it was anything else.
    I was 98% sure it wasn't a Singer too. It was just his wording in the Ad: "the brand is wore off , but looks like a singer", I felt like I shouldn't write off the possibility of a Singer out of hand, but the SLA and the bobbin winder were wrong. I've seen a ton of "Singers" in the Vintage Giggles thread that were labeled White, Kenmore, etc. So I do get what you're saying Muv.

    Thanks for the mid 1880s reference. I didn't know when they started with them. That must mean there were very few VS1 machines before the VS2 replaced it. No wonder they're so hard to find.

    I still think German too. I read somewhere yesterday that around one of the wars, the plates were pried off a lot of "Berlin" machines, so that they could be sold elsewhere. I see the possibility of 2 holes right under the winder.... if this is one of them, it will be very difficult to identify for sure. The holes do look very close together though.


    Quote Originally Posted by pinkCastleDH View Post
    Hey PCDH! I've been prowling Alex's site too, all of the machines made "over there", and can't find a direct match either. It's a good thing I love a good mystery. Thanks for the pretty eye candy!

    Doesn't Needlebar have a kitten when we refer people to their resources over there? I thought I remembered a discussion here, and there both, before I gave up on NB.


    Quote Originally Posted by Glenda m View Post
    What a mystery. Are you going to 'look?' Would also like to know what it is.
    We may be going to Calgary this weekend. If we are, it's on the way, and I will definitely be stopping in. I have a standing invitation if he hasn't sold it by then. And if we stop in, you know it will be coming home with me.

    I haven't told DH yet, but I figure I sold the 15-91 this weekend, this can't weigh as much, we're less likely to need those teleposts he keeps talking about...

  12. #12
    Senior Member pinkCastleDH's Avatar
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    I didn't know that the folks at Needlebar were like that. Certainly if they don't want people not directly associated with Needlebar to access things they need to strip them from the search engines. I think the gallery is dead anyway - I don't remember seeing anything that's been updated since 2009 or something like that.

  13. #13
    Super Member ArchaicArcane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkCastleDH View Post
    I didn't know that the folks at Needlebar were like that. Certainly if they don't want people not directly associated with Needlebar to access things they need to strip them from the search engines. I think the gallery is dead anyway - I don't remember seeing anything that's been updated since 2009 or something like that.
    I agree. Forums and such can be set up so that you -have- to log in to get info. Everything can be protected if it's going to be a private site.

    I couldn't find the posts I was thinking of, but it strikes me it was in the C'mon in and sit a spell thread. There was also a thread on NB that they were complaining about people (not the QB directly) using their stuff around the time I joined, in the summer sometime. Charlee did do a post about a discussion that she had with the owner of the forums, he seemed more reasonable than what I'd believed from reading other accounts on both sides. http://www.quiltingboard.com/persona...r-t159913.html
    Maybe it's not as big a deal as I thought.

  14. #14
    Muv
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    Hello Tammi and PinkCastle,

    Vickers machines have the serial number behind the pillar, and they don't have that type of bobbin winder, which I have only seen on German machines.

    I can well imagine that a German manufacturer's plate would be taken off this machine in Holland when war came. I often wonder whether the reason that my beautiful 1936(ish) Vesta, which has MADE IN GERMANY in bold lettering on the pillar, was shoved away into a cupboard by the owner because they couldn't stand the sight of it. It looks as though it was barely used.

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    Senior Member Whigrose's Avatar
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    Not to mention that the shovel head is more rounded and the attaching screw sits much lower than any of the Singers I have here.

    best,
    d
    My best is the least I can do.

  16. #16
    Super Member ArchaicArcane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muv View Post
    Hello Tammi and PinkCastle,

    Vickers machines have the serial number behind the pillar, and they don't have that type of bobbin winder, which I have only seen on German machines.

    I can well imagine that a German manufacturer's plate would be taken off this machine in Holland when war came. I often wonder whether the reason that my beautiful 1936(ish) Vesta, which has MADE IN GERMANY in bold lettering on the pillar, was shoved away into a cupboard by the owner because they couldn't stand the sight of it. It looks as though it was barely used.

    Hey Muv, that's brings up a good point, and something I was using when looking for a match. Do you have recommendations of brands that had the serial number below the pillar like this machine and the Singers did?

    I've seen your Vesta, it's gorgeous. It could be it was stuffed in a cupboard somewhere. It looks like there's no sun damage to it either.

    ETA: This is the photo that created doubt for me about the Singer thing early on, but I got over it.
    http://www.ismacs.net/singer_sewing_...arnations.html
    Photos 2 - 3 show a lovely model 12 with a similar bobbin winder. Similar, but not close enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whigrose View Post
    Not to mention that the shovel head is more rounded and the attaching screw sits much lower than any of the Singers I have here.

    best,
    d
    Those were my first two clues too. I've seen some of the F&R machines with that screw screwed partially out and it looks like there's a spring under it. I'd sure like to get my hands on this machine to see if I can figure out what that's about.
    Last edited by ArchaicArcane; 11-27-2012 at 01:46 PM.

  17. #17
    Senior Member pinkCastleDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muv View Post
    Hello Tammi and PinkCastle,

    Vickers machines have the serial number behind the pillar, and they don't have that type of bobbin winder, which I have only seen on German machines.
    Muv, I didn't think that you'd miss a Vickers I was just pointing out that the only somewhat similar stitch length mechanisms that I was finding were Vickers and from a couple of companies down under.

    Still looking around when I have the time.

  18. #18
    Muv
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchaicArcane View Post
    It could be it was stuffed in a cupboard somewhere. It looks like there's no sun damage to it either.





    I've seen some of the F&R machines with that screw screwed partially out and it looks like there's a spring under it. I'd sure like to get my hands on this machine to see if I can figure out what that's about.

    Sun? What's that? I'm in England. It's a rare commodity.

    By shovelhead, do you mean the front inspection plate? It has a set of mini tension discs to put the thread through when winding a bobbin. That must be what you mean by the sticking out screw.

  19. #19
    Super Member ArchaicArcane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkCastleDH View Post
    Still looking around when I have the time.
    Thank you! I've been doing the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muv View Post
    Sun? What's that? I'm in England. It's a rare commodity.
    LOL! We've been the same the last month or so, but mostly snow and bleak, not rain. Either way, I'm not getting a lot of natural vitamin D right now either. When I used to go to the Coast for the summers and Christmas, I always longed for home (the wide open prairies) when it would rain for days on end. I can just imagine living on an island!

    By shovelhead, do you mean the front inspection plate? It has a set of mini tension discs to put the thread through when winding a bobbin. That must be what you mean by the sticking out screw.
    Yep,. the shovel head is exactly that. It always reminds me of one of the shovels we use in the garden, or on the ice, or something. Thanks for the clarification! I couldn't tell they were tension disks from the photos I have seen. That makes so much sense! You wouldn't have to hold the thread to tension it, like I was taught to on the Singers!

  20. #20
    Senior Member Whigrose's Avatar
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    Shovel head = front inspection plate

    Sticking out screw :-) = the screw holding the front inspection plate onto the machine

    best,
    d


    QUOTE=Muv;5683965]Sun? What's that? I'm in England. It's a rare commodity.

    By shovelhead, do you mean the front inspection plate? It has a set of mini tension discs to put the thread through when winding a bobbin. That must be what you mean by the sticking out screw.[/QUOTE]
    My best is the least I can do.

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