Anyone use transmission fluid?
 

Hi, new member here, loving all the great info!

I have recently acquired three vintage sewing machines;
Kenmore 158.840 (aka model 84)
Gimbels-branded Japanese zigzag
Singer 347

I bought the Kenmore and the Gimbels from a thrift store for $10 and $15 respecively. I bought the Gimbels for the cabinet, and modified it to house the Kenmore.
A few days later, I found the Singer (in cabinet) at the side of the road on garbage night. I screeched to a halt and dumped it in the back of my station wagon :D

Anyway, my post is about transmission fluid as a lubricant.

Transmission fluid is a light-weight mineral oil with additives.
The additives that I am interested in are the anti-oxidants, the friction modifiers and the detergents.

Regular sewing machine oil is just plain mineral oil, just like the base oil of the transmission fluid.

Regular mineral oil oxidises over time, forming a varnish-like film that gums up mechanisms.
The antioxidant additives in transmission fluid are formulated specifically to prevent this from happening.

The detergent package in ATF is designed to remove gunk and varnish from steel and keep it in solution.

The friction modifiers provide additional boundary lubrication, preventing metal-on-metal contact, ie they enhance the wear-reducing properties of the oil.

In my opinion, this makes ATF the perfect sewing machine lubricant.

I used it generously on all three of my machines.
Before application of ATF, the Kenmore moved, but was so stiff that the belt was slipping. The other two were locked up solid.

After a day or two of sitting after application of ATF, all three machines turned effortlessly and ran quietly.
Swabbing the lubricated areas with q-tips revealed that the ATF had dissolved the years of grime and had turned black as a result.

Over the next few days, I ran the machines for a few seconds, swabbed off all of the black gunk that I could reach, then reapplied ATF.
The oil now swabs off clean, and the machines run beautifully.

I believe that sewing machine oil is the cause of these frozen old machines, and will never use it on mine.

The only disadvantage of ATF is that it is red, but I was careful to wipe it away from surfaces that could come into contact with the fabric, and have not so far noticed any red marks on fabric that I have sewn.

The other alternative is Tri-Flow, but I have reservations about that.
I am concerned that the solid PTFE could accumulate over time, and could cause problems in years to come.

I have an unpleasant feeling that forums in the future will be full of posts asking how to clean old Tri-Flow off vintage machines!

ATF is not something that I would make use of in general. It's effects on decals is not nice. It might be useful as a cleaning solvent.

OLD oil is bad, on that we can agree. However, unless your intent is to clean and long term store without use, I see no issues with SM Oil. It is the dried oil and oil/gunk in the nooks and crannies which is the issue. Dried Oil (Varnish) is sticky hence the "stuck" machines.

I cannot see how PTFE(Teflon) "residue" will be an issue in times to come. Unlike Varnish the Teflon, even when dry, is a lubricant. Alcohol works great for removing the PTFE FYI.

I do have an old mostly worthless stuck machine that I will try the ATF on to see what I can learn from that.

Thanks for the alternate view

Yes, that is a good point about decals (and Japanned or shellac finishes) on older machines.

None of my machines have any of those things, so not a problem for me.

I have wiped it over all external surfaces on my machines to clean them, and it didn't damage the paint or plastic parts.

The trick seems to be time. On your stuck machine, I'd advise liberally lubing the moving parts with ATF and then leaving it to soak for a day or two.
Might take a couple of tries, but I bet it would work.

Adding acetone to ATF makes the best penetrating lube I have ever used, but the acetone might not be a good idea on a sewing machine because of the risk of damaging the finish.

I bought a small bottle of power steering fluid with the intent of trying it, but haven't yet. Thanks for the reminder. Basically same as atf. Smaller bottle

So far, I am REALLY happy with using SM Oil first, then Kroil, and finally PB Blaster if the others do not work. but I will try the ATF (and ATF with acetone) just because I want to experience it.

Kriol is some AMAZING stuff....

Careful with the acetone, it can eat some plastics and paints!
Maybe test it on an inconspicuous area first.

I read an article where the ATF/acetone mix beat Kroil and several other penetrants hands down, but of course I can't find it now!

Edit: Found it!
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=182271

I've read that the ATF/acetone mix is about the best penetrating oil out there too but I do have reservations about it's effects on the japanned machines and decals. I'd try it on a junker machine first before using it on something I cared about.
Rodney

ATF is great in transmissions where heat, friction, and hydraulics are in need of a quality oil. The thing is, sewing machines are not transmissions and do not function like transmissions.

The clear oil used as sewing machine oil is designed to work in sewing machines and does that very well. Any machine that sits for any lengthy period of time should be oiled before use as the oil, any type, will run off or evaporate. Some faster than others, but it does dry out.

I have used ATF as a cleaner in really stubborn machines, but when finished I cleaned it out and re-oiled the machine with Tri-Flow and never looked back.

I make suggestions as to what oils / greases to use based on my experience, but I know people will use what ever they want. I suggest Tri-Flow.

Joe

Rodney,

Keep the acetone away from the older machines. Acetone will destroy the shellac, remember it's alcohol based and acetone is a stronger solvent than alcohol.

I've used that combination and it does work, but it's not really as good as the legends say it is.

Joe

I read that Kriol was used to soak SMs years ago. But any idea whats in it? Whats it smell like? Kerosene?

Jim,
Miriam just got some, maybe she'll tell us.

Joe

I'm not so sure about sewing machine oil being specifically designed for sewing machines.

The impression that I get from reading the MSDS sheets for these oils is that it is just plain mineral oil.

I have bought a few Singer products recently (seam ripper, bobbins etc) and it all seems to be low quality generic stuff with a Singer badge on it.

I see no reason why the oil would be any different, just cheap bulk mineral oil in a Singer-branded bottle.

I very much doubt that sewing machine oil is formulated in a lab by a team of tribologists. It's just plain off-the-shelf mineral oil that is 'good enough'.

A good example of this is 'Pellgunoil', which is a lubricant specifically designed for Crosman air pistols.

The $2, 1/4oz tube reads 'Specially Developed Formula'.

If you read the MSDS sheet, you can see that 'Pellgunoil' is in fact 'Monolec GFS SAE 30 Engine Oil'.

Most companies would have the good sense to at least change the name on the MSDS, but this is the type of thing that regularly goes on.

Transmission fluid has to be high quality, because it has to meet the stringent specs.

It is true that transmissions are far more hostile places than sewing machines, and ATF is probably overkill, but I'd rather have overkill than, er, underkill?

I'm sure Tri-Flow is also high quality, but 'sewing machine oil'? Not so much.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just stating my case. This is something that I have researched a great deal, and I am very happy with the results.

FYI - Sewing machine oil was originally made from sperm whales. In fact, from a specific fluid in/near the cranium that has a "waxy" nature to it. The early sewing machine companies documentation make it VERY clear that ONLY the very best Sperm oil should be used and NOT the petroleum based products.

If you think it is tough to get out the residual modenr dried out SM Oil, try a machine that was made in the 1870's that was stored before the petroleum products came out...

Of course those same companies started selling petroleum oil in a few decades.

NOTE of caution: It is ILLEGAL to own and trade in whale products in the US
(EVEN stuff that was produced before the bans!)

People have been prosecuted for selling AND buying it on Ebay.

Jamesbeat, did you join the QB to just stir up the locals?

(You forgot to include any information at all about yourself in your Profile.)

CD in Oklahoma

Not at all, and I'm sorry if I came across that way. I'm just being a little evangelical about using ATF, as I have had excellent results with it.

ATF also used to contain whale oil until it was banned. Maybe that's the reason it works so well :D

Once again, apologies for stirring things up. I'll update my profile now.

James,

I can't speak for others, but I did not feel like you were "causing trouble" or the like. It is a bit startling to have a person be "evangelical" before they have gotten to know us and us them....

In "my" experience here, the folks that do that are more often than not a "flash in the pan" poster. Here one day, making bold pronouncements to folks with more than a little experience of their own, and then gone the next when not accepted as the new guru.

One gentleman did that a few months ago, and I sent him a cautionary private message, and his response was "oh, I thought this was a site for quilting ladies so I assumed that they would not be very mechanically enclined(SIC)"

WOW...

It was tempting to "out him" but he left on his own....

Sharing of knowledge is why we come here everyday. We use what works for us in the end. Good to know about all of the products mentioned.

Once again, apologies if I came across that way.
I'm new to sewing, but I am experienced with small mechanical devices, and that experience seems directly applicable to sewing machines.

I tried something, it worked very well, and I thought that it would be a nice gesture upon entering a new forum to offer something to the group, rather than just ask a bunch of questions.

I'm actually here to learn about quilting. I have 'lurked' for some time now because I want to learn to make a few quilts of 8-bit computer graphics.
I realized that I would probably have some questions, so I registered.

I'm pretty thick-skinned, but maybe those 'flash-in-the-pan' posters would have stuck around a little longer if they had met with more friendly responses.

I hope my responses are coming across friendly. I mean them that way.

I do hope you stick around. I am a similar story here, I've only be around old sewing machines a year or two, but lots of mechanical stuff prior.

In case it was not clear, I do appreciate the offering of new info, really really.

I mainly use regular sewing machine oil, though I have also used Tri-Flow on occasion, though I don't buy the really gnarly, seized machines. The ones I buy move freely.

Whatever additives are in ATF likely won't stick around on a sewing machine, but for freeing up stuck machines, it may work pretty good.

Lack of regular oiling, and prolonged periods of disuse are probably what cause varnishing and stickiness, and not using plain old sewing machine oil.

They seemed friendly to me, and I enjoyed your thoughts on the use of ATF. I admit that damage to older finishes had not occurred to me.
Try it on that stuck machine and let me know how you get on :)

Steve, WHAT?!?!?!?!? You all-knowing machine guru, collector extraordinaire, you have really only been at this a couple of years? Wow. Now I feel more humbled than ever before.

James; WELCOME! I thoroughly enjoyed this thread. I love it when people think outside the box and bring new perspectives to things. I look forward to learning a lot from you!

Oh so NOT! I have been VERY fortunate to come into some amazing deals, some very focused obsessive searching and researching, and a LOT of learning here and from the times I can get Cathy(Mizkaki) to come down and show me what's what... Really SHE gets that title LONG before i would.

I am a mechanical nut. I took apart and rebuilt a 1956 chevy carburator from a car that had been "parked in the weeds" for a few years when I was 9 because I am ADD and grew up on my grandparents REALLY rural property and get bored super easily. I blame the fact that once the carb was rebuilt, the dang car started with my willingness to take things apart to see what they do and how they do it. Pre 1901 machines are amazing that way....

My experience with 4 year old Tri-flow is that any build up powders off like the finish on a teflon skillet then things turn very nicely. You are not using a huge amount of it. It does work very quickly. I can see that the transmission fluid might be nice when you have a more stuck than normal situation. I did buy a couple cans of Kroil but haven't had time to mess with it. If what ever your free it up solution could damage paint, use caution and adequate protection for the paint. I do know that Wilbur believes in Tri-Flow. We had two or 3 old stuck machines out back last summer. I gave Wilbur a bottle of clear sewing machine oil because being 4 he tends to go hog wild with the oil for the machine he was oiling. Then I gave Lovie Tri-flow for her stuck machine. We oiled and pulled out threads. All of a sudden Lovie's machine moved. Wilbur looked over there then looked at his machine and his oil. Then he said, "Grandma my machine needs that brown oil, too." You can't fool a little kid.

I have covered samples of 12 different oils under observation, upon my bay window since 12/28 of last year. Some remain completely fluid, some have gotten much thicker due to their solvent loss, and some have clouded over and jelled to the point of no movement. So which ones would you use on your sewing machines ? Both Kroil and Tri Flow have a goodly percentage of light solvents that will evaporate, leaving a somewhat heavy oil that still flows after over 5 months of exposure. Tri Flow is a bicycle product, with 40 % solvents, designed to dissolve and flush away old lube deposits and leave an oil deposit. Old sewing machines can benefit from that logic. In my mind, a fresh clean sewing machine doesn't need the solvent, just the lube oil. My oil of choice is Mobil DTE Light turbine oil. My metal cutting machines spec this oil in their transmissions, so I have 5 gallons. If I desire the solvent flushing action, add 40% light solvent such as kerosene or charcoal lighter fluid. For the same smell as Tri Flow add 4 % amyl acetate (banana oil). To learn the content of commercial products, read their online MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet).
John in WI

OK, Lets go beyond the MSDS and get to the crux of the subject.

What works, what doesn't? I do not own nor use any modern plastic wanna be machines, all I have is old to vintage to antique. So I do need an oil with the solvents such as Tri-Flow for the older ones that have decades of oil build up. And T-F does do a great job with them.
However, T-F does have one annoying tendency. If the machine sits for a period of time, you'll need to re-oil it before you use it. I have many machines and some have set longer than a year between uses and I've begun to see this just recently. Since I've been mechanicing for decades and my motto is if it moves - oil it, I can live with it. But I'd rather not have to oil a machine after it sits for a few months.

So, what works? Alright, here is a true, first hand story about a machine that sat for over 20 years between uses and ran perfectly when it was used again.

Back in 1989 or so my mother retired her old straight stitch 15 Clone (my avatar picture) for a newer but still vintage Kenmore ZZ machine.
At that time her oil of choice was ....... 3-in-1. It did say on the cans back then it could be used in sewing machines, so why not.

The machine was serviced by my late uncle Charlie and set back as a back up machine. It set on the bottom of a particle board shelf that soaked up lots of water that seeped under the wall as the bath tub in our house started leaking. The case all but rotted away, molding and decaying around the machine. We left that house in 98 and came to IL >yuck, but that's another story.

In 2011 I remembered the machine, hunted it down and checked it out. In spite of over 20 years of non use, in spite of the case molding and rotting around it ...... when I plugged it in and pressed on the foot controller ..... she took right off like she'd been used just yesterday. I've rebuilt the case, but just gave the machine a cursory cleaning and oiling and I'm still using it. It's never missed a beat.
Here's some better pics: { http://www.quiltingboard.com/vintage...d-t200795.html }

What my uncle oiled it with when he serviced it, I do not know. Mom had used 3-in-1 oil in it for decades. That worked.

End of story, no moral or sermon here.

If you like oil that smells good, try Marvel Mystery Oil in the small plastic bottles. That is a very good oil and is still red like ATF.
I have used that in sewing machines and it works quite well. It's a light free flowing oil that I just might start using again.


Now, on to something else.
I remember that fellow SteveH mentioned but I can't remember his name. His claim to infamy here was bragging to everyone that he was a 30 year + sewing machine mechanic and he lubed his machines by using an aerosol spray lube and hosing the machines insides then just buttoning them and leaving it at that.
We, or some of us, tried to give him the benefit of the doubt but he received a very cold shoulder from 99.8% of us.

I don't quote MSDS facts or things like that because most folks doesn't even know that chart exists. Couldn't care less either. What they want to know is WHAT WORKS. I came to this forum with 11 years of internet forum experience and many forums under my belt. I spoke of only that which I knew and had personal experience with, but didn't try to come off as a know-it-all or superior type. In the last year several other guys have also joined with much more mechanical, machining, and other technical experience that I have. So I have had to listen more than speak. That's OK, I still say what I know.

Jamesbeat, your quote and reply to my comment almost read as argumentative to me, but not quite. You got called on it and explained. So I'll continue on. No big deal, welcome to the QB.


So, now my arthritic fingers are tired of typing and I'm gonna read some more.

It's what works, not what some chart says.

JMNSHO

Joe

Johnm, nice to see some real research going on!
Did you use a sample of ATF in your experiment?
If so, how is it holding up?

Interesting that you mention using mineral spirits etc as solvent additives. This is practically the same thing as a popular home-brew gun cleaning product called 'Ed's Red'.
I use this on all of my firearms, and it works great. It's actually what got me started on researching lubricants rather than just trusting the writing on the bottle.

I recently bought an old sxs shotgun, and the thing was covered in varnish from old oil (my guess is 3-in-1).
The firing pins were stuck so badly that if I had closed the gun with shells in the chambers, the protruding firing pins would have set them off. It also stunk to high heaven.
I dropped the action in a bath of ATF and barbecue lighter fluid, and the next day it was clean as a whistle and functioning normally.

J Miller, it is great to see you up and functioning 100% again--I'm remembering your recent bout with something that put you in hospital. And I do love to see you guys get into the "discussions" and I am glad they are written down, so I can go back and study them when my son and I take on a "old old old machine" project. I can't post pics, so I know everyone gets put out with me when I ask specific questions without a pic, but all of you have been a tremendous help to both of us. Someone even pointed us to a tute someone made showing tensions and how to adjust, and how to read the "spin" of your thread that worked amazingly for my son (who is my quilter on a new Gammill that has had tension problems from day one) and from that day forward our quilts started being done up better and better. I love all of you, grumpy or not.....

And this thing with the ATF--years ago when I was puttering with an old machine that was stuck to high heaven and DH brought me in a can and told me to try it, but to do it outside, as it would stink. And boy did it ever. But it worked, and I got that machine up and running and my GS did his beginning sewing lessons on it. I still have it around somewhere and he calls that his machine. I think it is a knock-off of the Singers, because it looks and sounds like one of the pre-wartime Singers.

Did you know that transmission fluid can eat a hole in a blacktop driveway and if it splashes on your clothing it will eat a hole in it - like battery acid the holes don't show up til after its been laundered. So I would never try putting this any where's near my sewing machines.

Welcome jamesbeat!

One thing I'd like to mention is that at some point someone somewhere, possibly on a forum like this probably came along and said "pffft! SM oil?!? I use this bike chain oil on my sewing machines..." and people there probably also thought it was a crazy idea. ;)

I guess what I'm saying is that we never know where the next "step" in our sewing machine lubrication evolution is going to come from.

I probably wouldn't use Transmission fluid for my machines because I hate the smell of it and what it does to my hair. ;) I spilled a whole bottle of it in my hair and down my shirt when I changed the transmission in my old firebird. The hose popped out of the tranny and the whole bottle landed on me. No amount of washing with soap, shampoo or even that gritty Fast Orange took it all out. I looked like I was wearing a greasy Tina Turner for a week, just in time for a Christmas party too. Since then, I can't stand the smell of transmission oil.

Also being one who speaks of personal observation and experience, I can tell you that I have two samples of 3 in 1 oil under observation, one from around 1964 when under the Boyle Midway brand, and one recently purchased, under the ownership of WD40. These were the first two oils to cloud up white and jell up, in about 6 weeks. The ATF is completely fluid, no change in viscosity, the red color has faded to amber. The Marvel Mystery Oil is also now amber, the solvents have evaporated and the viscosity is about like 90 weight gear oil. As I tip the container I see areas of coagulation. I am not going to tell anyone what oil to use, but I will report personal observations, and not repeat gossip. If you must have the smell of Mystery oil, simply add a few drops of wintergreen to your favorite oil. ATF is probably way overboard for the lube needs of a sm. It is also the transfer case lube for many 4 wheel drive vehicles. Although thin, the EP (extreme pressure) additives protect the gears and bearings through more heat and pressure than a sm will ever see.
John in WI

You're kidding!?!?

You know, sometimes I wish I was more mechanically "enclined"... but those sewing machines are terribly intimidating. I have enough trouble just figuring out the dials on the outside of the machine... and the levers. What's with the levers AND the dials? Why couldn't they just go with one thing. It would be less aesthetically displeasing....

I think I was one of the ones who gave him a bit of a tongue lashing. Based on what Steve's told us, I don't feel bad about it now. Seriously. That guy did NOT know his audience!

Great, another experiment for me to get underway. Yes, I know that ANY petroleum product will eat blacktop. So now, I will douse fabric samples with various ATF fluids and wash them after a while. Would you please provide me with the data as to which fabric samples to use, as in cotton, poly, etc., and how long should the oil be in contact with the fabric before washing. Also, what is your favorite tranny oil. Thank you. I will be happy to report my findings.
John in WI

"I probably wouldn't use Transmission fluid for my machines because I hate the smell of it and what it does to my hair. ;) I spilled a whole bottle of it in my hair and down my shirt when I changed the transmission in my old firebird. The hose popped out of the tranny and the whole bottle landed on me. No amount of washing with soap, shampoo or even that gritty Fast Orange took it all out. I looked like I was wearing a greasy Tina Turner for a week, just in time for a Christmas party too. Since then, I can't stand the smell of transmission oil"

Did it eat holes in your shirt ?
John in WI

Are you sure you're thinking of transmission fluid?
I can believe that it (or any petroleum based oil) could perhaps soften the bitumen in asphalt, but it definitely doesn't eat holes in fabric!
I have been using it on guns for years, and keep cloths saturated in it handy in tupperware containers. When they get too dirty, I throw them in the laundry and they get washed. Some of these cloths have been saturated for several years, and have been washed many times.
I have also spilled it on my clothes more times than I care to remember without any damage.

Could you perhaps be thinking of brake fluid or something?

Okay, I'll join in, my point is probably mute but it is how I now feel about the vintage machines. Sewing machine lubrication evolution? I don't think we need it. Our vintage machines are much much older than we are and have been tested time and time again and again just by their rough treatment and zero treatment over the years and then can without so much as a groan start right up and happily sew for new generations of people.

What worked for these machines all of those hundred and more years ago will still work today. Part of the allure of these vintage machines is the simplicity that we are drawn to with lifestyles that nowadays border on hectic/frenzy.

One of the catch phrases at Seagate Technology where I worked a long time ago was K.I.S.S.
I have always liked that phrase and it reminds me ( maybe no one else) to do that. I use the old singer lube and I snap it up like it is gold every time I find a vintage tube of it. :) I remind myself of that catch phrase when my life gets too hectic.....Keep It Simple Stupid.

This is NOT directed at anyone. It is so easy to get carried away and complicate life more than it needs to be. Yes, research is/can be fun and in informative. But on the other hand why try to fix something that isn't broken and has worked so well for well over a century? Just asking.

My new catch phrase: I'd rather be sewing!

:D I can't honestly remember what I did with the shirt. Probably threw it away. It would have been a grubby shirt anyway and by the time I saw my hair I probably didn't think the shirt was worth it.

Man! THAT stuff is nasty! I've seen what it will do to the painted parts of motorcycles and cars when people spill it.

LOL! I agree. I guess what I'm getting at is Singer Lube has been changed and may some day be discontinued, so we (as tinkerers and service people) have evolved. It could happen that Tri-Flow could go away... stranger things have happened, then what would people use if they wanted something other than mineral oil?

I use sewing machine oil for the most part on most machines, other than one I know hasn't been maintained in a long time. I use a "cheap" zoom spout on my brand new long arm, so I'm certainly not looking for the latest greatest. I'm just really really used to the stuff I like being discontinued or changed so much that I have no interest in using it any longer.

I love this discussion... Too cool.

So one point I think we are all glossing over is this.

What is the goal?

I mean that is the goal treating it for a current typical user, for long term wear considerations, hard use, long term storage, intermittent use, toxic avoidance, scent, etc etc.

I had a person at my last show ask what I use to lubricate them and when I said Tri-Flow you would have though I suggested Jesus wore girls underwear the way he went off on me about the evils of modern materials on old machines and how he ONLY uses real sewing machine oil. I asked him how he liked the smell of the whale oil, he had no idea what I was talking about. I explained about what the "original correct" material was. He actually backed off and apologized... but the point is, that having YOUR opinion (no matter how well informed) is not the same as knowing "the one true way" (which does not exist)

Also, just for reference, I do not use the same lubes on all of my machines. I have some machines that i could care less what they get oiled with, most that only get tri-flow, and even one that only get whale oil. (it is all it has ever known)

Good point Steve! At the end of the day too, it's important to realise that even transmissions sometimes don't "care" what we use. When I was having trouble with the clutch and transmission in my firebird, I called the dealers to ask what the approved "lubricant" was for the transmission. One said gear oil, one said ATF, one said "Whatever you want, engine oil even...". I opted for the ATF, in the hopes that in the dead of winter here (-40F ish bad days) the car would not try to drive itself even in neutral anymore. The ATF was also reported to be easier on the syncros in the transmission, and I was all for that.

Soooooo, even though the original spec was for gear oil, the ATF was an upgrade that improved usability.

HA! That even worked out as an analogy!