Singer 411G, spool pin pads?
 

I pounced on a 411G today that showed up in Kijiji. It's pretty much "mint" except for the spool pins.
The pins are present, but they flop around. When I looked at the machine, the guy said that he'd made sure they were the right pins (and they look like it), but there was some sort of pad that belonged under them that had crumbled away. I don't have a parts chart for the 411, so I can't look up Singer's part number for it, and google was a swing and a miss.

I have a small piece of it, and it's really weird looking. It's sort of cellular looking, like a piece of corral or a dried up sponge.

My question is, why would it be there? Why make the recess for the pins, then pad it out?

If I know why, I might know what.
As in what sort of thing to use to replace that padding. It's hard and crumbly now, but I don't know what it was like when it was healthy...

I was thinking of using some spool pin felts doubled up til I get the right thickness, but if that padding was firmer, perhaps I need something else?

Either way, the machine is currently marinating in tri-flow.

Picked up a 115 from the same guy too.

My 411G has the same problem - I thought they were broken off - someone tried to 'fix' them - really nice to treadle BTW

I don't have a clue. Even looked up a 411 on ISMACs and it looks like many of the Singers of that era. Were it mine, I'd just put felt pads there. Color code them to match even.

Joe

Joe these are very much like a Singer 401 but they can be put on a treadle with very little trouble. They also can chain stitch.

I'd been thinking that too! How nice to have a machine I could treadle to do "anything" without power,... and the chainstitch. I don't currently know why, but I think I need that. :D

Did you ever fix your spool pins, or do they dance like the ones I'm staring at? Can they even hold a spool of thread that way and not mess anything up?

I think I shall color code them red. It's the only color of felt I have. :) The pins are disassembled already, so it'll just be a matter of cutting and stuffing felt.

There wasn't a lot of information on ismacs at all, they had a manual though. Between that one and the one on Singer's site, I think I have all the info on operating it that I need.

Here's everything I know currently about the machine:
The 411G is a german produced machine. It's closest to that 431G you asked about a month or so ago, just with a flat bed instead of an open arm. (Edit: and also no extension bed. I'll be on the lookout for one of those....) It's got a few differences from a 401 visually (one is that the color is much lighter than the 401. Almost a beige, in fact), and the bobbin winder is "internal" more like the newer machines, plus that chain stitch which it does with only the needle plate needing to be changed. (newer models require a bobbin cover plate, and a slide on guide.) This one has the guide permanently attached, inside that front door, and the bobbin case doesn't get covered, you just remove the bobbin.

I plan on cleaning it up tonight after I finish with a couple of clients. I'll post a pic or two of it in this thread then.

I had a theory about those pins. I'm guessing someone tilted the head back and hit the wall and broke them off. I haven't bothered to fix them - I have a thread stand. You will really like that machine.

Oh! yours are -gone- gone. I definitely believe they were broken off that way. I have had a few machines the same way. The 401 and the 403 most notably. The pins can be replaced if you ever want to. The online shops want a fair bit for them, but I can get them if you ever need.

I'm really looking forward to trying it out. Darn paying clients stopping me doing that. ;)

Somewhere I have one of those "sort of cellular looking, like a piece of corral or a dried up sponge." things. I didn't know what it was, but it's somewhere in our sewing stuff. Looks like a small 1/2" or so diameter washer made from something ivoryish in color. I'll see if I can find it.

Been sewing on the Commodore today, screwed up my bag bottoms so I might as well do something else. Don't feel like sewing any more.

Joe

Someone removed them - then they put some sort of maybe a sucker stick in there... really cheesy... I just snapped a pic.
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They just stabbed that sucker stick right through. I'm not very impressed.

Looks like Bubba was around.

Joe

That ain't all Bubba did. Bubba bent the needle shaft. My Singer 500 donor machine let me borrow a nice one. It took some doing for me to work up the courage to fix it but it wasn't really all that hard.

wonder if they put the sucker stick there and then did the same thing that broke the thread holder to begin with and the sucker stick pushed through instead of breaking.

I appreciate that Joe. The bits of the one I have here is the color of laundry lint, but I doubt that's the color it started out.

That's a shame. I had a similar day. Had to replace the gears in a machine today, in the end, the only reason it didn't get pitched out the window is that the machine doesn't belong to me. What a chore. It's supposed to be a lot easier, but everything went wrong.


Poor machine! I would never have thought of a sucker stick. It's weird they'd put the washer in there... maybe to make it harder to punch through?


How does one bend a needle shaft? I would think it would have to hit something pretty solid like concrete? I'm guessing the needle plate didn't look great either then? I did a complete dis-assembly on the FW, and was pretty surprised at how easy that portion was to take apart too.

I bet you're right. That instruction plate doesn't look like a lot of fun to get off either, so it would be hard to fix once you realized your "oops". It looks like both Miram's and mine have had at least one attempt at removal.

The spool pins are held on by an identical clampy thing too. Really unfriendly this particular feature, but so far, it's the only thing that makes me go "What were they thinking".

I didn't get a chance to clean up that machine today after all. The client machine fought me too long, and I'm beat after having to do some emergency IT things after that, so I'll tackle it tomorrow when I'm fresh and less likely to lose my temper. :(

At this point I vote for a free standing thread holder accessory and just run the thread over the top of the machine rather than mess with it or mar the door any more.

The only clue I have to the bent needle bar was some lint impacting the bobbin area (looked like upholstery) and a bit of matching really heavy sick green upholstery fabric in the mix. Maybe they figured that machine would sew anything. Could have been a lot of weight or maybe they tried to pull the material through as they were sewing. Yeah I had to replace the needle plate. I have a longer list of things to look at when I evaluate a sewing machine... That needle hit the foot - I tried adjusting/centering the needle to no avail - I couldn't see the bend in the needle until it was out. Then it was very visible. Works great now. My sister sat next to me with the manual and we figured it out. I had timed a needle plenty of times so got it pretty quickly. We also "practiced" on the parts machine...

You're probably right. I have one here I've never really tried that hard to use. I got it because so many machines I was getting had broken spool pins, but then ended up with a bunch of spool pins. :) The only thing is then there are 2 gaping holes in the top of the machine. I wonder what it would take to "convert" it to the regular spool pin style... hmm,.. I'll have to think on that.

I wonder if it was sold to the person you bought it from as "Heavy Duty" or "Industrial" and someone realized a little too late that it wouldn't do what they wanted and sold it to you.

The manual I take it is the "something like 400 page service manual" for all slants? I'd love to get my hands on a better copy of that one (the pictures are pretty dark), but it's been a life saver as it is.

I looked and looked in all the most obvious places for the little ivory colored washer thing yesterday and couldn't find it. Typical, I trip over something until I want it, then I can't find it.. I'll keep looking.

Joe

No problem!! I am mostly just curious. I appreciate you looking to begin with.

I wonder if the extra spindle out of a Singer 500 would fit that?

It doesn't look like it, but I'd love to be wrong. It's the same pin as on a 290C, which I used to have. I have one of those 500 pins coming though, so I will know in about a week to a week in a half.

I -still- didn't get a chance to clean this machine up. DH came home a little under the weather, so I left the sewing room for the afternoon.

Ok,.. here we go. So this is what I picked up on Tuesday. Today it got a complete cleaning, including both tensioners (needle and bobbin) disassembled and cleaned, oiled and greased.
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As discussed, I added felt to the bottoms of the spool pins, to take up the slack. It's a little spongy though. It doesn't seem to affect the thread spools in a short term test. We'll see over a longer term project though. (If I knew how to make one of Joe's bags for instance... :rolleyes:) I may replace the felt with washers or something.

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A close up of the bottom of the spool pins. It was pretty tough to put the steel lock washer into place. There's no bend in that plate, but it's certainly out of shape. I wonder if it will settle down eventually.

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I found 3 surprises though, all related to the bobbin.

1. It's significantly different than the bobbin that's in a 401/ 403/ 503. I don't have a 500 here to compare with, but I suspect that it's the same as the other 3. My guess is that this has something to do with the ability to chainstitch?
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The second surprise was the "epoxy" or similar on the edge of the bobbin case. Miriam, does yours look like this, or is it a repair the way I suspect it is? It seems to work fine for lock stitching. We shall see about chain stitching tomorrow when I have some focus back.

Third surprise, it needed a new tension spring, but I replaced that with a spare from 403ish bobbin case, set it to the "specs" in the TFSR manual and the test stitch is perfect! Next test, probably tomorrow now - project chainstitch. :)

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Here's what the machine came with, besides the manual.
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It also came in a cabinet, which I'll just store for now, and maybe send with another machine at some point. Once I've had a chance to go through all the treats I found in the drawers, of course. The guy I bought it from said he got it at an estate sale auction. All of this came with it, plus a Griest buttonholer.

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I picked this case up from the Singer store that just closed, and it's a perfect fit for this machine, so that's where it will be stored.
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I picked up this 115 from the same guy, and I suspect he got it at the same auction. In the drawers for the 411, I found a green box of low shank attachments, and the buttonholer was a low shank as well. There was also a manual for a Blind stitch attachment, and coincidentally, my BS attachment was missing its manual.

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It will get cleaned up at my next opportunity. It's got some paint that's been dripped on it, so I'll have to figure out how to remove that. Today it got a wipe down, and a good oiling with Tri-Flow. It's freed right up. I think I'll make a box for it, and put my "spare" (chinese) hand crank on it. No parts required.

Yeah! It does a chain stitch too!

If that bobbin case -was- repaired, it doesn't interfere with the chain stitch function either.

I sewed a bunch, then ripped the stitches out, and giggled like a maniac. I still don't know the practical use I'll have for it, but I'm thinking of using it to quilt something I piece. I like the look of the chain stitch, and I've seen some people use it decoratively. I suppose that means I'll have to make something bigger than 4" square like my last (first) quilting project.

that chain stitch will hold remarkably well in a seam if you tie off the ends. My mom just had a little hand crank chain stitch machine to get herself through college majoring in Home Ec in the 1940s. She said the teachers laughed at her but her work was good and the stitches held.The chain stitch is nice when you put grow tucks in a little girl's dress. If you look in your manufactured clothes you might just find some chain stitching.

I've read that too. The procedure in the manual took me a minute or two to figure out (weird wording) but it seemed good and strong once I followed the directions.

I think somewhere here on QB, I saw something about some wartime uniforms being chain stitched.

Don't the little ones "stretch" the clothes enough that the seems would pull at the stitches? I don't know that clothes around here ever lasted long enough to be let out. :)

I'm sure I've seen something here chain stitched, not just bags of rice either. :) Now I'm going to have to try to figure out what it was. Like the DH doesn't think I'm weird enough already, now he's going to find me snooping in clothes...

Just for my curiosity, which Singer machines have the chain stitch ability.

Joe

These are the ones I know of,.. I'm sure there are more (not including the CS only machines)

The 411, 431 are the only 400 series I know of.
There's a 648 (I think that's the model number) that I have here, it can chain stitch with the right attachments.
And a 758 can chain stitch, again, with the right attachments. Bobbin case cover, slide on guide, and a needle plate.

I have the needle plate for the 648 if you found one that didn't have it and needed it. That machine went to parts for some reason.

Edit: Right... missing too much stuff in the BCase area. Cost of fixing it was about the cost of the 411G.

Miriam, does your BCase have the same epoxy or whatever on it?

WHere? I should go shoot it.

Thanks, I'll make a note of the model #s and if I see a cheap one I'll grab it. I have some of the chain stitch attachments, maybe all of them in the various boxes of feet, and things we've acquired.

Joe

my 411g has the same bobbin holder as the 401 - I wonder if someone replaced it - I do not have a manual that goes with my machine - I've never been able to see why it should chain. I'm betting someone swapped out the piece. There is a part in the accessories I've wondered about though. Now I have to go looking...

I went looking but couldn't find it. Maybe I should change to - "never let stuff you are looking for know you are looking..."
It is a thing that is a bit taller than the bobbin - I never experimented with that thing - the manual I have does not show a good pic of the BCase. That thing might be not even belong to the machine. I don't see any little arm that would make it chain. I guess that's why I never tried it. I just couldn't see how it would do anything.

It would be pics 4 and 5 on this post:
http://www.quiltingboard.com/vintage...ml#post5615269


I'm sure there are more,.. I couldn't possibly have run into all of them in the last couple of weeks. When I get home, I'll try to post a link to the one kit I know about on the Interwebs, so you can see what pieces they are, and gather them into a group. Surely that will unleash the siren's call to a chain stitch machine. :)


The same case? Mine is a completely different number, and has a finger..... again same pics I mentioned above.

I tried to put both plate and bobbin into the 401A last night, to see what would happen. It chained, very loosely, but it chained. I didn't go the other way though.... hm,.. I will have to try that tonight when machine and bobbin cases are in the same place.

The Manual is available through Singer and on Ismacs... the Singer one is better quality.

Hah! Story of my life!

If you post a pic of it once you stop looking for it and it turns up, I'll see if it jives with anything in my kit....

I'd sure like to know if yours will chain.... I will try with the other BCase when I get home too... I'd love to be able to chain with a regular case, because this one is not easy to find online anywhere!

I haven't tried to chain. Here are some pics. I got the little drawer thing with my machine. Here are the contents. [ATTACH=CONFIG]373360[/ATTACH]

oops sorta clumsy here...
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up close
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I do not know what the round thing is. It is the same size diameter as the bobbin but a little taller. The throat plate is just like a T&S for chain. I have a surplus of those if anybody needs them.

I would Love to have one of those little drawers! They look just so darn handy.

It looks almost like an insert that might take the place of the changed bobbin case? There isn't a part number on it is there? I'd love to know if your machine can chain with the parts it has. I will try to chain with the regular bobbin case tomorrow. Tonight, I'm really sore from leaning over a short table to cut quilt squares at sewing circle. I sure appreciate my taller table now!

The scooping on the back of the needle plate is a little different than the T&S plates, and again, the part number is different. I think I tried the T&S plate in there, because I was curious, and it wasn't a good fit,.. but it's hazy, so I might have just thought about it. Might have run into the BCase. Might not be a problem though for a "regular" BCase...

I find it really interesting though that these 2 machines have such different pieces for the same model.

BTW, I asked the supplier I get my new Singer parts from. They said that the leg cushion for a FW (45780) will work in place of the original "pads", if you convince them a little. I will give it a try when my fresh ones arrive.

I'm not sure how that assembles. I do not see a parts number - for all I know it could be a part off a toilet. There is no manual - I do have one I downloaded but there are no details about the bobbin area. Nothing about changing out the throat plate nothing about the round thing - just stringing up the top and leaving out the bobbin.

That is exceedingly weird. The manual I have shows the AK3 plate in use, and the upper threading, but that's it. There is no mention, like you say of other parts. If I thread according to the instructions, and change the plate, it works, but I have a different bobbin case than you do, so I'm not sure what to tell you. Does the round ring fit in where the bobbin would go? Could the slide plate close with it in place?

Might be from a toilet...

So much drama going on here I haven't tried yet. I don't know what the arrow is about either. [ATTACH=CONFIG]373555[/ATTACH]
Oh and that IS my index finger...

Drama,.. more than car accidents and almost-super-bugs? I thought you'd had your trifecta of bad luck!?!?

That is really weird. I don't know that I've ever seen anything like that with a Singer... or any machine for that matter.
Maybe it's Goth jewellery?

It's a lovely finger. :)

I saw that finger once ..... waving in front of my face as it's owner said: "No you can't have that 3/4 size cabinet". LOL :D

Joe

That would be the same finger. I wonder about that arrow... Why is there an arrow?

I would say that what ever that ring does, the arrow indicates a direction of assembly. Just a guess.

Joe