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Wheeler & Wilson9/Singer 9W Serials
I've corresponded (lightly) with John Langdon (he edits the newsletter for ISMACS) and he's compiling serial numbers for both Wheeler & Wilson D9 machines and Singer 9W machines, along with physical characteristics of both machines, i.e., bed length, bobbin style, etc.
Here is part of what he wrote to me in his emails: Singer was great about keeping records (mostly) and, even with the 'missing' information for some of its earlier models, it puts the other manufacturers to shame. W&W were not so good. Then, of course, Singer renumbered Bridgeport machines and effectively went back to 0 but with a 'W' in front. So, there is a huge grey area around the D–9 and 9w. No-one really knows just when (in the sequence of serial numbers) Singer took over. Nor is anyone sure exactly sure when they dropped the Wheeler & Wilson decals and introduced the Singer Celtic Knot style. And later, when they changed the bobbin to a 221 style (with holes in the side) from the one shaped like a donut or bagel, depending on your cultural heritage. So far, I would estimate yours to be a little before 1911, but not before 1909. So far, it is the latest example I have that uses the donut shape bobbin. If yours has the longer, Singer standard bed length, then it is clear that the company had adapted the smaller W&W beds to fit its own cabinets/treadles before it changed the bobbin. There is every reason to believe that yours is a 9w7 but, in later parts books, it says the 9w7 took the 221 (later) bobbin. This is an anomaly I have yet to explain. There is no record of how big a production run would have been at W&W, but we know how many of its popular models Singer commissioned - 100,000 per batch was not uncommon. Your machine is only 4,000 away from the batches which had the 221-style bobbin, so it could have been rushed out for a particular trade show, or promotion, as pre-launch samples or some other imposed deadline… with the rest of the batch following with the new bobbin. This is, of course, imagined but I know things like that have been reported. They had to have machines to demonstrate at the launch, so they could take orders for the main 'batch'. Once they were tooled up to make the new bobbin and maybe its housing, it was a simple job to get the assembly line to fit these 3 or 4 parts rather than those 3 or 4 parts, as all the rest of the machine was the same. I think what I mean is: even though changing to a new bobbin sounds a big deal, practically, it was quite a simple change. I have never heard why they changed bobbins. There seems no good reason for it. One is not inferior/superior to the other. Perhaps the later style was just more convenient - more in the style of the other bobbins they made. Maybe the old W&W bobbin-making machine was wearing out and they didn't want to replace it just for this one model. Maybe it was a 'size' thing - and they thought the user would prefer slightly larger bobbins, less frequent windings, etc. It could be anything. If you were able to post a request for serials - D–9 or 9w - I'd be very grateful. I can't do it myself as I'm stuck with a deadline and won't have time to monitor the replies regularly (I put together the ISMACS News magazine for them and it always takes more time than I have). Thanks very much for your help. It's greatly appreciated. Best wishes, John So here it is....if you don't mind sharing, would you mind posting your information about your W&W D9 or Singer 9W machines in this thread and I will forward the information collectively to John. He needs the serial number, bobbin style, and any outstanding features that you feel would make a difference or lend a hand in dating these old girls. :) Thanks! |
Sure, mine is a 9W-7. Uses the 221 style bobbin. The serial # is: 3220806.
The machine itself is just like yours. I can't say anything stands out about it. Well, one thing does. Somewhere in it's life it was converted to use 15x1 needles. A 127x1 is way too long, with interference problems under neath. It came in a 5 drawer treadle with the middle drawer that has the cut out spaces for the attachments. The drawer fronts have fancy filigree type designs on them. Don't know what that's called. Joe |
So Joe...can you actually use 221 bobbins in your machine? That would be so nice!! The "donut" style that mine uses doesn't hold much thread. How do yours mount in the machine?
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Mine is a Singer 9W, serial # W22105, with a 221 bobbin. Machines fits into my Singer treadles.
Cathy was very helpful in showing me how to fix the tension; now, I should give this poor baby a better cleaning. She sews a beautiful stitch! [ATTACH=CONFIG]328467[/ATTACH] |
Here is the model number to mine
3136261, I don't know if it has any other numbers besides the 9W. By donut do u mean the case doesn't come out and u just slip the bobbin in and close the latch? That's the style I have. Laura |
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Originally Posted by Charlee
(Post 5147223)
So Joe...can you actually use 221 bobbins in your machine? That would be so nice!! The "donut" style that mine uses doesn't hold much thread. How do yours mount in the machine?
Forgot to add, mine fits perfectly in a standard Singer cabinet. I had it in my #1 66 cabinet to test it out. Here's some pics of my bobbin area. Joe |
Originally Posted by LauraJJ68
(Post 5147411)
Here is the model number to mine
3136261, I don't know if it has any other numbers besides the 9W. By donut do u mean the case doesn't come out and u just slip the bobbin in and close the latch? That's the style I have. Laura |
Thanks Joe! I hadn't paid enough attention to these machines to even know that the later models had the 221 bobbins! Interesting that they still insert in the same manner instead of having a case. :)
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Originally Posted by Charlee
(Post 5148538)
Thanks Joe! I hadn't paid enough attention to these machines to even know that the later models had the 221 bobbins! Interesting that they still insert in the same manner instead of having a case. :)
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Ty for the clarification and the pics, I have the donut style, solid sides.
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2768423 - D-9 221 bobbin. Picked the little jewel up at a resale shop couple years ago for $25, gave it to sis and she had it refinished. Gorgous piece of furniture, yea, she don't sew much on it. I have put more time on it than she has. My personal one here is a Singer. Love it to pieces and it just cruises right along but will be looking for a home for it soon.
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Originally Posted by JabezRose
(Post 5148891)
2768423 - D-9 221 bobbin. Picked the little jewel up at a resale shop couple years ago for $25, gave it to sis and she had it refinished. Gorgous piece of furniture, yea, she don't sew much on it. I have put more time on it than she has. My personal one here is a Singer. Love it to pieces and it just cruises right along but will be looking for a home for it soon.
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Charlee- One of my treadle machines is a Wheeler & Wilson in what I believe is called a library cabinet. It's a parlor type cabinet, and the front door has a mirror on it with two rows of fake books under it. The serial number is 2762558, and wish I knew more about her. The last patent date on it is August 2nd, 92, and bobbin is the flatter one with no holes in it, I'm sure it's the donut/bagel type. I put a new belt on and she runs fairly smooth, however I have not attempted to sew with her yet. When I have a little time to spend with her I intend to clean her up and do some sewing! I will try to attach a photo or two if I can figure out how.
Oh well - I've fiddled around with it for about an hour and cannot get the photo to a manageable size. Operator error I'm sure . . . Lyn |
#2768423 is a Wheeler & Wilson
#G9881500 is a Singer, with the donut bobbin in a treadle table #G0280005 looks just like the Singer in my treadle table only it has a motor mounted on it. Donut Bobbin Do not see anything about them being a 9W, what do I look for? |
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"Charlee- One of my treadle machines is a Wheeler & Wilson in what I believe is called a library cabinet. It's a parlor type cabinet, and the front door has a mirror on it with two rows of fake books under it. The serial number is 2762558, and wish I knew more about her. The last patent date on it is August 2nd, 92, and bobbin is the flatter one with no holes in it, I'm sure it's the donut/bagel type. I put a new belt on and she runs fairly smooth, however I have not attempted to sew with her yet. When I have a little time to spend with her I intend to clean her up and do some sewing! I will try to attach a photo or two if I can figure out how.
Oh well - I've fiddled around with it for about an hour and cannot get the photo to a manageable size. Operator error I'm sure . . . Lyn" OK I believe I figured out the resizing, so here are photos of my 9W. Lyn |
Half Size Half Pint Wheeler Wilson 9 handcrank
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Serial Number 2771081, donut bobbin. Machine length 10.5", Width 6.5", Throat Width 5-1/8", Throat Height 5-3/4". Carrying case is 15" long x 7.5" wide x 12" tall.
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Thanks Everyone!! Jan, I forwarded the photos of yours to John... :)
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Mine is a Singer 9W and I think it is the 7. The serial number is W56102. I will have to check the bobbin when I get home.
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Originally Posted by Charlee
(Post 5149547)
Thanks Everyone!! Jan, I forwarded the photos of yours to John... :)
Texas Jan |
Thanks Mary! :)
Jan, I got this email this morning...this is what John had to say about Half Pint: Hi Charlee, That's magnificent. Thank you so much. And your contributors. Jan's machine is super cute. The only reference to the short-base portable I've seen is a 1904 UK advertisement. There is so little written about W&W and no production records - some pretty trade cards and that's it. It's hard to believe considering it was the market leader in the early days, The short-base D9 is definitely a 20th century product and only produced for only a few years. It is clear that, when Singer took over in 1905, it streamlined the product line down to a full size portable and full size treadle; though the treadle could come with 1, 3, 5, or 7 drawers, or in an enclosed 'parlour cabinet'. You will notice a smooth vertical groove to the right of Jan's machine's wooden base. This, like the holes in the bases of old Singers, was to provide a route for the treadle belt if the owner wanted to mount it (complete) in a treadle. With that style of base, you had the option. There was another version of the (short) base which doesn't have the groove and was for hand use only. All the short-base machines seem to have used the same decal set, with side-by-side Ws. The contemporary long base had two Ws superimposed and a large '9'. There are a couple of exceptions, but that appears to be the rule. The regular horizontal arm decal wouldn't fit on the shorter arm so W&W put its name in "Gothic type", instead of the usual, rather wide, slab-serif face. Always good engineering, Wheeler & Wilson; I like the way they re-located the captive thread post so that it folds behind the arm, not above - reducing the overall height. And interesting that Jan showed it next to a 221. Not only did Singer introduce a 221-style bobbin (well, almost identical), but they also abandoned the captive thread post and mounted the post on top of the arm cover plate. Another feature that was eventually to be found on the Featherweights. It's often overlooked but a lot of the FW - the stitch-forming mechanism and the feed - is a development of W&W 's inventions. Even the idea of having the arm cover plate on top of the arm was W&W's. Singer had always had their's at the rear. I think Singer bought a bargain. Best wishes, John |
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My serial number is 244113 and it uses the donut bobbin. Last patent date is March 25, 1890.
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Originally Posted by skaduzy
(Post 5150698)
My serial number is 244113 and it uses the donut bobbin. Last patent date is March 25, 1890.
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I just checked and mine has the same bobbin as my FW and 301.
When I got mine and started doing some research I agreed with John's final statement. Singer bought a bargain and technology that really improved their product. When I received mine the research indicated there were very few with the W serial number. I see that has changed. Thanks for your work to find info about our machines. Now, if I could just find a new tension spring! Mary |
Originally Posted by vintagemotif
(Post 5151057)
Your cabinet is GORGEOUS!!!! The beautiful ornate carving of the grape leaves on the coffin box is exquisite!
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Friends, I have a small heartbreak. I have my great-grandmother's W&W 9 sewing machine (#271523). We just moved, and the movers were just awful. They've lost the front slide plate. This machine is in working order, I use it all the time. It is exactly 1 1/2 inches, and I remember that the opening in it was in the shape of a small shield. Any solutions? [ATTACH=CONFIG]352949[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]352950[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]352951[/ATTACH]
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Charlee,
Since this thread came back up I thought I'd add my second Singer 9W-7 to the list. Serial # W23454, has the 221 / 301 bobbin and fits in the standard Singer cabinet. Other than the serial number starting with a "W" it's exactly the same machine as the one I listed on the first page of this thread. Revjjo, Sorry to hear about the damage to your machine. I can't help with the slide plate but you might try Thayer Rags Parts: { http://thayerrags.com/ }. Also if you haven't already done so, file a damage report with the moving company. You need to check everything they moved for damage and missing parts and be ready for evasion, lying, and personal attacks. In my opinion if that slide plate is missing it's because one of the movers stole it. There's no other logical explanation in my opinion. Joe |
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I have a W&W 9, movers lost the front slide/throat plate. I'm looking for a replacement. Any thoughts? This machine is my great grandmothers, is in excellent condition and I use it every day.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]352975[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]352976[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]352977[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]352978[/ATTACH] |
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Here's the case. Its in excellent condition. Well, except for the damage to the back of the coffin top that the movers did that I just discovered...[ATTACH=CONFIG]352981[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]352982[/ATTACH]
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Oh, and the plate is 1 5/8. I couldn't read the scale through the tears...
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Revjjo, I am so sorry this has happened to you! It serves as a good reminder to us all to control the packaging and packing of the things that mean the most to us!
Joe, not all movers are evasive liars... the company I work for never has been! We always acknowledge customer complaints and act on them...thankfully there have not been many! I second the opinion to contact CD at ThayerRags.... I'm betting that if he doesn't have what you need, he'll have a good idea of where you can find it! :) |
Hi All :) Found you all while I was looking for info on a Wheeler & Wilson W9 I just bought today ! it is in a 3 drawer cabinet with a coffin top and the serial number is 245022 . is there somewhere to find out when it was made ? or a place to get a instruction booklet on it ? Or even a rough Idea on value?
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Welcome, Crazy!
I'm missing a slide plate on my W&W too. I pulled one off my old Singer 15 and it is a hair too wide and a half inch too long. I'm wondering is a metal worker could 'fix' it. |
Ummm, do you have a file? Do you have a Dremel tool? All kinds of ways to "fit" parts that didn't come from the machine it's going on.
J :D e |
Originally Posted by J Miller
(Post 5522138)
Ummm, do you have a file? Do you have a Dremel tool? All kinds of ways to "fit" parts that didn't come from the machine it's going on.
J :D e |
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I just got a w9 it also shows d9 on nameplate this weekend. S/n 2709457 looking for help getting it cleaned up. It uses the donut bobbins. It is a 7 drawer. I have a post on the vintage website with more pics and info. I,m new to this posting so I had some help from others getting on the correct forum.
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Hi all, my Singer 9W uses the longer needles, and has the donut bobbin. The serial number is 3151727. I don't have a cabinet for it, the lady that gave it to me wanted to keep the cabinet. I have tried it out on another treadle base, it sews a beautiful stitch. Gotta love these oldies but goodies.
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My W& W D9
Originally Posted by oreo1912
(Post 6167256)
I just got a w9 it also shows d9 on nameplate this weekend. S/n 2709457 looking for help getting it cleaned up. It uses the donut bobbins. It is a 7 drawer. I have a post on the vintage website with more pics and info. I am new to this posting so I had some help from others getting on the correct forum.
I have had this beautiful cabinet for many many years and during these years I did not have any interest in treadle machine except for furniture. I recently opened the cabinet and took out the head. S/N 2378452 It definitely needs some oil soaking before I try to turn anything. I hope to find someone who can help me restore her and will welcome any suggestions. I am in the Houston, Texas area. I do have attachments and found a printed guide to the use of them on the W&W site. Orginially there was a wooden puzzle box in one of the drawers that held the attachments but during a time that I used the cabinet as furniture at my office the wooden box disappeared. Who ever took it left the attachments and directions. The directions are very brittle and have crumbled into mostly tiny pieces. I am pretty excited to start restoration on my D9 now. |
Hi Wini,
Your Wheeler and Wilson D-9 is a fantastic sewing machine. Your off to a good start by exploring the W&W web site which sounds like the Yahoo group. The group has attachment and owners manual instructions which are essential. You can pretty much put the machine in operating order by following the oiling and threading instructions though it would be fantastic to have someone show you the ropes. You can pretty much clean and oil the machine with nothing more than sewing machine oil and cotton balls or soft cloth being very gentile on the decals. There is also a QB sticky on cleaning a sewing machine. The needles and bobbins are unique to W&W so I'm hoping you have a few but if not they can be had. Also the W&W hand wheel turns away from the operator, the opposite of Singer. Your in for lots of fun. Jon |
Unfortunately dating by serial number is NOT an option on the Wheeler & Wilsons. The EARLIER curved needle versions there is an approximate chart based on the production numbers published, but W&W lost a LOT of records in a fire and the rest Singer thrashed when they bought them in 1905.
I strongly recommend joining the W&W Yahoo group. They are compiling known machines serial numbers with receipts. Manuals are available for free as well |
Forgot to mention a picture would be great
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