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Thread: Copyright aggrevation.

  1. #201
    tooMuchFabric's Avatar
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    Well my goodness. I was reading through all this very interesting topic, replying as though we were all sitting around a kitchen table gabbing and sipping, and I realize I must be the only person awake at this hour - which is late even for me!
    I apologize to everyone for running off at the fingertips on here.
    But I do so enjoy everyone.

  2. #202
    Community Manager PatriceJ's Avatar
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    Please do not apologize. your responses were thoughtful, right on point, and very helpful. :thumbup:

  3. #203
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    It occurs to me after reading all this discussion, that if we do create a design in EQ or any other way, it might be a good idea to keep all of the working files. Just in case someone thinks you copied their design, you could prove in good faith that this is how you arrived at yours. It is not foolproof, and anyone can say you recreated it, because it all subjective. Just a thought. :wink:

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by tooMuchFabric
    Well my goodness. I was reading through all this very interesting topic, replying as though we were all sitting around a kitchen table gabbing and sipping, and I realize I must be the only person awake at this hour - which is late even for me!
    I apologize to everyone for running off at the fingertips on here.
    But I do so enjoy everyone.
    I agree :) I enjoyed reading through your recap of the discussion.

    I went to a quilt show yesterday with three other ladies and on the way there we had a discussion about the different rules at different shows. We tlked about identifying the designer and what was legally allowed by the designer. We all voiced similar opinions to what was discussed here.

    We got to the show and it featured a community of quilters who have overcome very difficult times in the last 100 yrs and who are now being presented as innovative and 'nouveau'. Their designs have been picked up by a major 'chain' store who are selling quilts in these designs as young urban 'chic'. The designs and quality were very 'primitive ' and 'homespun' using a variety of fabrics that may be found in an old clothesbasket or thrift store.

    As I walked around looking at the quilts I was thinking about the copyright aspect. I did chat with some of the ladies from the community that had accompanied their display for the show and the history was all very interesting. The problem that I had with this display was (although I appreciate the community's history etc) is that these designs and quilts were similar to something that my daughter would have made and did create when she was 6 yrs old. I am sure some of us have similar ones that have been passed down to us from long ago or if our children dabbled in sewing, when they were very young, some may have been created.

    My point here is, now, these very simplistic designs, some of which have been in the public domain for 100 yrs are now 'copyrighted' . Where does the spinning wheel stop? If a children's group decided to make a few wall hangings or quilts that would definitely look similar and they raffled or sold them they would perhaps be in fringement of these designs.

    This whole infringment area is really murky waters and can be argued either way. I guess the question becomes, "What is an original design"? What aspects of a design give it the 'original' label? Are past designs that are already in the public domian taken into account?

    Even some of the more intricate designs have been around for a very long time - If you walk through the churches in Europe and look at the floor tiles and mosaics that have been there for hundreds of years you will see designs that are now being considered as new or original.

  5. #205
    tooMuchFabric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virginia Smith
    It occurs to me after reading all this discussion, that if we do create a design in EQ or any other way, it might be a good idea to keep all of the working files. Just in case someone thinks you copied their design, you could prove in good faith that this is how you arrived at yours. It is not foolproof, and anyone can say you recreated it, because it all subjective. Just a thought. :wink:
    Spot on.
    And keep a few photos of your assemblly process when you make your quilt, too. Same reason.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by costumegirl
    The problem that I had with this display was (although I appreciate the community's history etc) is that these designs and quilts were similar to something that my daughter would have made and did create when she was 6 yrs old. I am sure some of us have similar ones that have been passed down to us from long ago or if our children dabbled in sewing, when they were very young, some may have been created.

    My point here is, now, these very simplistic designs, some of which have been in the public domain for 100 yrs are now 'copyrighted' . Where does the spinning wheel stop? If a children's group decided to make a few wall hangings or quilts that would definitely look similar and they raffled or sold them they would perhaps be in fringement of these designs.

    This whole infringment area is really murky waters and can be argued either way. I guess the question becomes, "What is an original design"? What aspects of a design give it the 'original' label? Are past designs that are already in the public domian taken into account?

    Even some of the more intricate designs have been around for a very long time - If you walk through the churches in Europe and look at the floor tiles and mosaics that have been there for hundreds of years you will see designs that are now being considered as new or original.
    Right.
    The only thing that can be copyrighted in these prim quilts is the exact same size and shape strips in the exact same placements as the original prim quilts.
    That is to say, Reproductions of an original quilt.
    They can copyright that.

  7. #207
    Community Manager PatriceJ's Avatar
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    you can copyright a reproduction?

    copy protect a copy?

    are you sure?

  8. #208
    tooMuchFabric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatriceJ
    you can copyright a reproduction?

    copy protect a copy?

    are you sure?
    I meant the pattern for it, thanks!!
    Sorry not to be clear.
    The Gees Bend organization own their quilts, which were originally scrappy, and their patterns for them, which are reproductions of the quilts so that others can make those quilts same as the originals.

  9. #209
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    :) That's the group I saw at the show.

  10. #210
    Super Member quiltmom04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by costumegirl
    Quote Originally Posted by tooMuchFabric
    Well my goodness. I was reading through all this very interesting topic, replying as though we were all sitting around a kitchen table gabbing and sipping, and I realize I must be the only person awake at this hour - which is late even for me!
    I apologize to everyone for running off at the fingertips on here.
    But I do so enjoy everyone.
    I agree :) I enjoyed reading through your recap of the discussion.

    I went to a quilt show yesterday with three other ladies and on the way there we had a discussion about the different rules at different shows. We tlked about identifying the designer and what was legally allowed by the designer. We all voiced similar opinions to what was discussed here.

    We got to the show and it featured a community of quilters who have overcome very difficult times in the last 100 yrs and who are now being presented as innovative and 'nouveau'. Their designs have been picked up by a major 'chain' store who are selling quilts in these designs as young urban 'chic'. The designs and quality were very 'primitive ' and 'homespun' using a variety of fabrics that may be found in an old clothesbasket or thrift store.

    As I walked around looking at the quilts I was thinking about the copyright aspect. I did chat with some of the ladies from the community that had accompanied their display for the show and the history was all very interesting. The problem that I had with this display was (although I appreciate the community's history etc) is that these designs and quilts were similar to something that my daughter would have made and did create when she was 6 yrs old. I am sure some of us have similar ones that have been passed down to us from long ago or if our children dabbled in sewing, when they were very young, some may have been created.

    My point here is, now, these very simplistic designs, some of which have been in the public domain for 100 yrs are now 'copyrighted' . Where does the spinning wheel stop? If a children's group decided to make a few wall hangings or quilts that would definitely look similar and they raffled or sold them they would perhaps be in fringement of these designs.

    This whole infringment area is really murky waters and can be argued either way. I guess the question becomes, "What is an original design"? What aspects of a design give it the 'original' label? Are past designs that are already in the public domian taken into account?

    Even some of the more intricate designs have been around for a very long time - If you walk through the churches in Europe and look at the floor tiles and mosaics that have been there for hundreds of years you will see designs that are now being considered as new or original.
    I think anyone who agonizes over color choice or whether their edges are straight or points match need only to look at the accolades that folk art quilts garner, and can relax. It's all wonderful! But yeah, I know what you mean about new designs. Nearly every quilt magazine has a "strippy" quilt of some sort. Is that copywrite infringement? I can't imagine it would be. How about a medallion quilt. Many, many designers do them. Where is the tipping point? hard to say.

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chele
    What if I figure out Apple's "pattern" for the IPhone? Do you think I could sell it? Or is that that license/law thing? Doesn't it really boil down to ethics or manners? If you didn't create it, you should really ask permission to profit from it.

    As an aside, I bet all of you talented quilters could come up with your own wonderful patterns. And I'm sure you'd be more than willing to share with the rest of the world. That's what I love about quilters. Huge hearts and sharing personalities. And if your fellow quilter made billions off your pattern without ever asking if it was okay, you'd send a congratulations bouquet, right? Laws or not, what's the right thing to do?
    If you figure out the apples pattern, which is patented under technology, and you changed it a little you would be ok to sell it. Check under patents.

    Now if you came by it while working for apple, be prepared for corporate espionage court case though.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyMarie
    I believe that if you use a pattern that you purchased, you have the right to sell your creation. If the designer of that pattern wanted exclusive rights to sell the finished project, they should NEVER have put the pattern out for sale. If you copy someone else's design and sell it without purchasing the pattern, then it is wrong.

    You cannot even use a commercial photo as inspiration for a painting or a quilt without getting permission from the holder of the copyright if you make money on the painting or quilt. If they recognize their photo in your painting or quilt, they can sue you, whether or not you gave them credit and/or you own a copy of their photo.
    That's because you are using the art as a focal point, ie copying someone elses work. They won't have a case if you used the art as part of story you tell in whatever art you do.

    Legal photographers handbook.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by catrancher
    Quote Originally Posted by nena
    Ok I have a question. I was trying to get my daughter into quilting. sent her a couple of sites to look at. I also saw a beautiful quilt someone had done ,and copy and pasted it in a email so she could see how beautiful it was ,and maybe get interested in quilting. I received and email telling me to be careful because I had did something wrong ( still don't know what) about infringement???? So now I just dont send anything much because I am afraid I will do something wrong? Go figure. It had to be from this board or one other
    because that is all I go on. If it was here please let me know what it was. Thanks
    I offered once to sell a pattern I had used at a reduced price. The designer actually got on the board and told me it was a copyright infringement and illegal. Looking back on it, it was a ridiculous claim. I bought the pattern and as long as I'm not making a profit (I wasn't--I was selling it for less than I'd paid for it), I can do whatever I want with it. It's a little like buying a gift for someone. Just because someone tells you you're doing something wrong doesn't mean that you are, and it doesn't mean they're right. Don't be intimidated. And realistically, is someone ACTUALLY going to come after you? Hardly. It would be too expensive, not to mention the hassle.

    I understand artists now coming after people for pirated DVDs and CDs. That's a totally different story. Those folks are pirating thousands, even tens of thousands, of items. In that case, it would make sense to go after a person. But for a one or two time offense? Come on! I'm not advocating knowingly infringing on someone's copyright, but no one should be afraid of innocently posting something out of the goodness of your heart.
    I believe selling patterns that you own is like selling books that you own. It's not illegal, any more then half price books selling books is illega.

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by thequiltladies
    As some one who designs patterns, you MUST have permission to sell items from books, patterns, etc. The patterns in the books are for your own personal use, not for resale. This goes for quilt guilds too, just because one person purchases the pattern, they cannot put the pattern in a newsletter without permission. Please, remember it's just like copying a DVD or CD, it's stealing. I DO make my payments from my designs and I need each sale.
    Copying your pattern into a newspaper is one thing. Selling a quilt you made from the pattern is another thing. I don't think you can equate the two.

    If you make money selling the patterns, I'd be listening to what people here are grouching over. I'd also take a look at other industries who try to restrict the sale of electronic stuff. The music industry is feeling the bite of this from discontented listeners. The book industry is getting it as well.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by quiltmom04
    Quote Originally Posted by vickig626
    Quote Originally Posted by pam1966
    Quote Originally Posted by Scissor Queen
    Quote Originally Posted by knlsmith
    I don't know about patterns like that from magazines. All I know for sure is that each pattern has a copyright of some type, Ususally printed on the back or on their website, and the ones that i use you need permission to sell items made from the pattern.

    I see other people selling places without paying for the right to do so like I did.
    You actually don't need permission to sell things made from any pattern. No matter what the designers think or try to tell you.
    What about when it says on the pattern itself that you can't? I'm really curious about this.
    I've run into this as well. The pattern actually says it's only for personal use and items made from pattern can't be sold, which I think is unfair. I don't buy these patterns if they say that.

    My quilt instructor said that if a pattern is modified 40%, you can call it your own and sell it as your own and the items made.
    McCalls article said that no matter how much you change a pattern, it's still 'derivative' and you not allowed to claim it as yours.
    Then McCalls shouldn't print most of what they print as most of it is derivative off of public domain blocks.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virginia Smith
    It occurs to me after reading all this discussion, that if we do create a design in EQ or any other way, it might be a good idea to keep all of the working files. Just in case someone thinks you copied their design, you could prove in good faith that this is how you arrived at yours. It is not foolproof, and anyone can say you recreated it, because it all subjective. Just a thought. :wink:
    That is a very good idea.

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