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Thread: Copyright aggrevation.

  1. #151
    Senior Member aliaslaceygreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyMarie
    I know that without hearing a tone of voice, or seeing body language expressions, that written communication can often be interpreted in a way that was not meant. I will take it as that.

    I am very well-versed on what constitutes plagarism in the written and digital world, as well as the art world. I did my master's thesis on cyber-plagarism a few years ago. As a writer and English teacher, I constantly talk to my students about the importance of giving credit where credit is due.

    However, since I don't see designer's names showing up on the paperwork that goes with many quilts in a show or a fair, I asked the question I did. I honestly don't think those quilters intended to mislead anyone. Granted, I have never been to a juried show... mostly guild shows and state fairs. I am sure in some of the fancy, shmancy quilt shows, there are stricter guidelines to adhere to.
    You asked, I answered. I didn't call you out.

    I am not willing to make more of this than it is---With your background, you understand perfectly about attribution.

    There have been instances where quilters have neglected to say they worked from a kit/pattern and have gone home with the ribbon, despite the rules stating otherwise. (No, I don't have a link. I recall reading about it on other lists long ago.)

    peace.
    :D

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuilterInVA
    The article in McCall's magazine is written by a patent attorney and contridicts what you say.
    You and McCalls are referring to a "patent", a whole different critter than a copyright. Copyright is just like I said in my previous post, a patent, if someone wants to spend the money and can actually get one, doesnot follow the same rules.

  3. #153
    Community Manager PatriceJ's Avatar
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    and we were doing so well. :roll:

    yes, please.

    peace. throw in some love, happiness, puppies and balloons.

    now somebody start a chorus of Kumbaya and pass me the s'mores.

    :lol:

  4. #154
    thismomquilts's Avatar
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    I, officially, do not want to quilt ever again... seriously - if I have to be so afraid of breaking some law because of BUYING a pattern, not matter the source, and making sure I DO NOT copy and sell or give away (which I never do or will) but have to worry about someone seeing the quilt I too the time and effort and money to make and wanting to buy it... good grief...

  5. #155
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    It is obvious that this is a forum of people with exceptional quilting and intellectual ability. Maybe this is a nudge for all of us to brush up our creative skills, perhaps take a design class or two, and then be able to own our work completely. With a little training and EQ, we all have the ability to shine based on our own accomplishments and the satisfaction of knowing we owe nothing to anyone! Who knows, with this group of great minds, maybe this could release a whole new paradigm in design.

    I admit that this thread has inspired me to take my own advice. I have taken a couple of classes in designing spirals and am starting one in bargello design. It is truly a joy to see a finished creation that started from scratch just out of my head and heart. The miracle is that your own design will look as good as any one else's and will truly be unique to you. (Kind of like our kids.)

  6. #156
    Senior Member pam1966's Avatar
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    Here is my take and what I think in a nutshell. (Yes, my brain is so tiny it can fit in there too.) If I am wrong please correct me, I want to understand this.

    As long as you are not SELLING a quilt, a bag, etc. that you have purchased the pattern for it's okay. And you can sell such items if the pattern maker is alright with it. But if the pattern maker states that you cannot sell items you make from their patterns, that is covered under copyright.

    If you use a pattern and enter a quilt in a show, it depends upon the venue whether or not they require you to specify whose pattern you are using. I would think it would be obviously wrong to claim someone else's pattern as your own. But making a quilt from a pattern and showing it is okay.

    Where am I right/wrong?

  7. #157
    Community Manager PatriceJ's Avatar
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    well, pam, as you may have noticed already, you'll get conflicting answers from a number of sources who consider themselves experts.

    the law itself isn't really all that confusing. it's all the differing opinions that muddy up the waters.

    some pattern makers have successfully bullied buyers into believing they can dictate what's done with the finished product. nearly everything i've read from credible sources says that what you make using a pattern is yours to do with as you please.

    most of us agree that, without or without the law, it's always a best practice to give credit to the designer.

  8. #158
    AbbyQuilts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pam1966
    Here is my take and what I think in a nutshell. (Yes, my brain is so tiny it can fit in there too.) If I am wrong please correct me, I want to understand this.

    As long as you are not SELLING a quilt, a bag, etc. that you have purchased the pattern for it's okay. And you can sell such items if the pattern maker is alright with it. But if the pattern maker states that you cannot sell items you make from their patterns, that is covered under copyright.

    If you use a pattern and enter a quilt in a show, it depends upon the venue whether or not they require you to specify whose pattern you are using. I would think it would be obviously wrong to claim someone else's pattern as your own. But making a quilt from a pattern and showing it is okay.

    Where am I right/wrong?

    I think you need to figure out what you want to do
    Whats morally right or legally right. You can do both as well.

    Morally you should respect the wishes of what others ask. Its just a simple curtsy.
    Legally well thats what we have been discussing and as others have said its confusing and even attorneys can argue for each side and sound convincing.
    I believe and I am not expert. That when you buy a pattern it is yours to do with as you want with the finish item.
    You should not copy the pattern and sell that or give that away.
    You also should not claim the design as your own.
    As far as showing you have to follow the shows rules.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by pam1966
    Here is my take and what I think in a
    As long as you are not SELLING a quilt, a bag, etc. that you have purchased the pattern for it's okay. And you can sell such items if the pattern maker is alright with it. But if the pattern maker states that you cannot sell items you make from their patterns, that is covered under copyright.
    As long as your are not making copies of the pattern itself and distributing them you are within the law.

    What you do with the product you make from that pattern is up to you. You can do anything you want with a product you make from that pattern; sell it, give it away whatever. A copyright does NOT cover an item that is made from a pattern.

  10. #160
    Super Member knlsmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virginia Smith
    It is obvious that this is a forum of people with exceptional quilting and intellectual ability. Maybe this is a nudge for all of us to brush up our creative skills, perhaps take a design class or two, and then be able to own our work completely. With a little training and EQ, we all have the ability to shine based on our own accomplishments and the satisfaction of knowing we owe nothing to anyone! Who knows, with this group of great minds, maybe this could release a whole new paradigm in design.

    I admit that this thread has inspired me to take my own advice. I have taken a couple of classes in designing spirals and am starting one in bargello design. It is truly a joy to see a finished creation that started from scratch just out of my head and heart. The miracle is that your own design will look as good as any one else's and will truly be unique to you. (Kind of like our kids.)
    VIRGINA SMITH: Love your last name, by the way. LOL

    I love your comment. I would LOVE to have a version of EQ, but alas, I cannot spend the money on it. Daughter starts college in 3 weeks and needs a new tire for my car so she can drive it ($160 and takes 2 weeks to get when ordered)

    I started this thread because I was so completely SICK of the "Nice Guy" finishing last. I went thru the trouble, cost, and effort to get permission from a designer to sell an item (whether I legally needed it or not who knows) and then someone I know in my area, who knew what I had done, started trying to sell the same thing without any attempt at getting permission. AND not even crediting the designer with the idea. Fortunately, their quality was NOT even in the same planet as mine. (evil snicker)


    I am not trying to make a mint, Like I said before, I enjoy sewing/quilting, and each time I sell something I spend the money on more fabric or something to do with sewing/quilting.

    And I will continue to ask any designers if they care if I sell items made from there patterns and give credit where credit is due. I feel that is the right thing to do and I can sleep at night.

    I am so gald to see all the comments and questions on this thread. i really feel this has been the best copyright thread we have all made on this thread.

  11. #161
    Community Manager PatriceJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knlsmith
    And I will continue to ask any designers if they care if I sell items made from there patterns and give credit where credit is due. I feel that is the right thing to do and I can sleep at night.

    I am so glad to see all the comments and questions on this thread. i really feel this has been the best copyright thread we have all made on this thread.
    let's hear a thunderous round of applause for both statements! :thumbup:

    if everyone focused on "what's right and ethical" instead of "what can i get away with?" we wouldn't need no stinkin' copyright laws. :thumbup:

    i do not mean to imply that anyone who researches and strives to understand and comply with the law has a selfish motive. far from it. i encourage everyone to keep working toward that goal. :P

    i merely want to go on record as especially admiring somebody who "goes the extra mile".

  12. #162
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    Thank you for being one of the sincere and proper sales people who give credit where credit is due. There is no way to stop those who are less scrupulous but knowing you are doing the right thing helps. Consider the source and I send notes of disapproval whenever I find someone like that so that at least the vent is heard by the "perp"... they'll find out the hard way one of these days. You at least have a good conscience. Go for the gold, girl!!!

  13. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by vickig626
    Quote Originally Posted by pam1966
    Quote Originally Posted by Scissor Queen
    Quote Originally Posted by knlsmith
    I don't know about patterns like that from magazines. All I know for sure is that each pattern has a copyright of some type, Usually printed on the back or on their website, and the ones that i use you need permission to sell items made from the pattern.

    I see other people selling places without paying for the right to do so like I did.
    You actually don't need permission to sell things made from any pattern. No matter what the designers think or try to tell you.
    What about when it says on the pattern itself that you can't? I'm really curious about this.
    I've run into this as well. The pattern actually says it's only for personal use and items made from pattern can't be sold, which I think is unfair. I don't buy these patterns if they say that.

    My quilt instructor said that if a pattern is modified 40%, you can call it your own and sell it as your own and the items made.
    Ask Paula Needlstorm (sp?) and Hilton Hotels. I believe this may have went to the Supreme Court, whereby they ruled in Paula's favor. Hilton said they had changed the pattern by at least 50%...but they hadn't (by law). And if they did, it apparently wasn't significant enough changes to matter. (They put their floor tiles in many hotels that was based on her quilting pattern shown in Houston.)

    Don't believe everything you read on the internet, or hear, to be the truth. Most of it has a grain of truth, but the copyright laws are so extensive and confusing that even some attorney's don't understand them fully - let alone us lay people. And it doesn't matter what we personally believe, it only matters what the laws say. Just follow whatever is written on the pattern, don't buy it if you don't agree, or contact the designer. If you disagree with whatever they say, find another pattern! It's cheaper than loosing a lawsuit...and several designers are now suing for copyright infringement (not for 1 quilt, of course, but for multiple). Just the same rights as Disney - and you'd better not let them see you selling their designs on anything!

  14. #164
    Super Member quiltmom04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BellaBoo
    Magic Tiles is outdated as far as being considered something new. It's just a variation on a stack-and-slash quilt, where you stack different fabric blocks and do a series of cuts and shuffles. When the cuts are sewn back together, you end up with different blocks for your quilt. Almost the exact same pattern was in one of the quilting magazine not long ago. I wouldn't buy the pattern, how to do the technique is on many blogs in tutorial form.
    The article mentioned said that a technique was not able to be copywrited - just a pattern.

  15. #165
    Super Member quiltmom04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbbyQuilts
    Quote Originally Posted by katmom54
    I guess I am confused...I have seen a lot of discussion on this topic, and I wonder if there is just too much misunderstanding...so please educate me. ...
    Crafters, quilters, woodworkers, home designers, etc have all sold products made from other people's patterns - not once I have I seen credit given to anyone. I always understood that a pattern that is published and sold is then to be public and the crafter can use it as they wish. If a designer makes a product, and someone copies it without permission, then there is a problem. So, for example if I made 30 twisted bargello quilts and sold them at a fair, there should be no problem since I came by the pattern legitimately when I bought the book - I am not taking any special credit for the design, just the workmanship...but if I go to the quilt show, take a picture of a quilt and then make one to show myself - that is an infringement...
    Is it getting more complicated than that?
    Nope you pretty much have it

    Also if a pattern maker does not want to make the pattern but wants to restrict who sells it then they need to licence the pattern instead of sell it (think of it like mc D's franchising)
    The McCall's article does say that you can not display it publically without permission, and I would guess a fair is a public display, so I'm betting you couldn't send it in that venue.

  16. #166
    Super Member quiltmom04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vickig626
    Quote Originally Posted by pam1966
    Quote Originally Posted by Scissor Queen
    Quote Originally Posted by knlsmith
    I don't know about patterns like that from magazines. All I know for sure is that each pattern has a copyright of some type, Ususally printed on the back or on their website, and the ones that i use you need permission to sell items made from the pattern.

    I see other people selling places without paying for the right to do so like I did.
    You actually don't need permission to sell things made from any pattern. No matter what the designers think or try to tell you.
    What about when it says on the pattern itself that you can't? I'm really curious about this.
    I've run into this as well. The pattern actually says it's only for personal use and items made from pattern can't be sold, which I think is unfair. I don't buy these patterns if they say that.

    My quilt instructor said that if a pattern is modified 40%, you can call it your own and sell it as your own and the items made.
    McCalls article said that no matter how much you change a pattern, it's still 'derivative' and you not allowed to claim it as yours.

  17. #167
    Super Member quiltmom04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marciacp
    Quote Originally Posted by MistyMarie
    So, if I make a quilt from a pattern and want to enter it in the State Fair or a local quilt show, I have to get permission from the designer to be able to display it publically? Does that mean that quilt store owners cannot put up a display quilt without permission from the designer? So, if I give away a quilt and that person displays it, they still have to research the pattern and get permission if I didn't put the designer's name on the label?

    Honestly, what would happen if I didn't? I am not making money off my quilt... at most, getting a ribbon. So, there is absolutely no monotary gain on my part, which would mean that I am not causing the designer a loss of income. If anything, I am putting out their design for others to see, and potentially buy the pattern.

    How many of us have posted pictures of quilts we have done and NOT credited the designer? Does that mean that every picture on this board that has not done so is violating copyright? I have purchased at least half a dozen patterns I would not have had I NOT seen someone's quilt on this board. That is free advertising for those designers. For them to say, "NO" would be like shooting themselves in the feet.
    Misty,
    You can absolutely enter a show, or post pictures of any quilts
    you have made without the permission of the designer. And
    you are absolutely right - it is great advertising for the designer.
    In fact, just this morning I received a call from a woman in
    another state wanting to purchase one of my patterns. She
    had been at a retreat all weekend and another lady was making
    a quilt from my pattern. This woman saw it, liked it, and
    got my info so she could contact me to purchase it. If she hadn't
    seen the other lady making my pattern, it would not have
    resulted in a sale for me. Quilter's sharing their work, and
    things they are working on is a great thing for everyone,
    including the designer.

    As I have read many of the posts in this tread, I am seeing
    a lot of misinformation about copyright law. My hope is that no
    one will get scared of posting pictures, sharing their quilts,
    entering shows, or even putting their work in a quilt shop.
    The biggest thing is just don't make photo copies of a pattern
    and pass it out to a class, or a bunch of friends - instead tell
    your class or friends where they can purchase the pattern if
    they like it. That's the bottom line. Otherwise, please feel free
    to continue sharing pictures, etc. That's a good thing and not
    in violation of copyright law.
    Then why did the McCalls article you can't display in a public place without permission?

  18. #168
    Power Poster BellaBoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuilterInVA
    You cannot make a quilt and display it at a quilt show, etc. without the creators permission.
    I don't know much but I do know this is not true when a quilt is made from a purchased pattern. Credit should be given but you do not need permission to display it. If the quilt show says you need permission to enter it then that's their rules not copyright rules.

    The hotel is a business and should have known better then to copy a design close enough to be recognized by the creator. That was stupid and the hotel probably lost just on that reasoning alone. LOL

  19. #169
    Super Member snipforfun's Avatar
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    Paula did in fact sue the hotel and won. She had the copyright "registered" which then gave her the right to proceed legally. She also no doubt had the resources to take them on and she knew that the hotel had deep pockets. I highly doubt that the "ordinary" designer (like us peons!) would ever go to the expense of registering a copyright let alone proceed legally against a quilter that probably has little to go after. Paula was very smart to do what she did. We need to respect copyrights out of respect if nothing else but unless they are registered, a designer cannot take a legal stand. I took a class in copyright law and worked as a paralegal for several years. Sylvia Landman has lots of info on this subject. Google sylvia landman copyright law

  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by madelinkk
    Is this right?
    I bought a pattern on ebay. When I received it, the pattern had been pulled out of a quilting magazine. It just doesn't seem to be the right thing to do.
    As long as the thing being sold is the original, unaltered page or pages from the magazine, selling it is fine.

    What's not ok is making a Copy of the magazine page and selling That as a pattern.

  21. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by pam1966
    You actually don't need permission to sell things made from any pattern. No matter what the designers think or try to tell you.
    What about when it says on the pattern itself that you can't? I'm really curious about this.[/quote]

    The manufacturer will tell you whatever they want you to believe.
    The product made from a design is not copyrighted, only the design itself.

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by katmom54
    but if I go to the quilt show, take a picture of a quilt and then make one to show myself - that is an infringement...
    Is it getting more complicated than that?
    If the "design" of the quilt is an original design, and if the design is understandable from your picture, then your picture is an infringement.
    If you remember the quilt in your head and make one of your own, your quilt is not an infringement.
    But don't ever write it down!

  23. #173
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    [quote=AbbyQuiltsAlso if a pattern maker does not want to make the pattern but wants to restrict who sells it then they need to licence the pattern instead of sell it (think of it like mc D's franchising)[/quote]

    Right.

  24. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostrider
    The artist/designer/writer of the pattern has every right to limit the commercial production of her work if she chooses to do so. She is not acting the least bit dishonestly, as you put it. I would like to see your source of information.
    Not so.
    The designer has no rights to the item produced from the pattern.
    However, I would not say she was dishonest, she might be thinking that she is correct even though she is not.
    Actually, I can't think why someone would even try to restrict what people do with finished products. Maybe they think that by restricitng the sale of products from their designs, that the persons who buy those products might then turn around and make their own products from newly purchased patterns if they can't buy the item already made.
    Not so.
    People who buy finished quilts are not likely to be people who would make their own quilts! At least not to a large enough number for the designer to bother worrying about.

  25. #175
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    [quote=ctack2]
    Quote Originally Posted by ghostrider
    Quote Originally Posted by dunster
    \The artist/designer/writer of the pattern has every right to limit the commercial production of her work if she chooses to do so.
    But what is the designers work? The production of the pattern. You aren't copying and selling her pattern.
    You have bought the pattern and paid her price. Why should she get credit for YOUR work?Carol B
    Right.
    .

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