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Thread: Copyright aggrevation.

  1. #126
    Super Member MistyMarie's Avatar
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    So, if I make a quilt from a pattern and want to enter it in the State Fair or a local quilt show, I have to get permission from the designer to be able to display it publically? Does that mean that quilt store owners cannot put up a display quilt without permission from the designer? So, if I give away a quilt and that person displays it, they still have to research the pattern and get permission if I didn't put the designer's name on the label?

    Honestly, what would happen if I didn't? I am not making money off my quilt... at most, getting a ribbon. So, there is absolutely no monotary gain on my part, which would mean that I am not causing the designer a loss of income. If anything, I am putting out their design for others to see, and potentially buy the pattern.

    How many of us have posted pictures of quilts we have done and NOT credited the designer? Does that mean that every picture on this board that has not done so is violating copyright? I have purchased at least half a dozen patterns I would not have had I NOT seen someone's quilt on this board. That is free advertising for those designers. For them to say, "NO" would be like shooting themselves in the feet.

  2. #127
    Senior Member pam1966's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostrider
    Quote Originally Posted by mom-6
    My question is, how do I know if something I decided to do because I liked the look when I tried it is copyright out there somewhere by somebody else who had the same idea?
    In order to be guilty of copyright infringement, you must have had access to the original design. If you didn't see it somewhere, you obviously didn't copy it.
    So what's to stop people from lying and saying they have never seen the original design in any form? I would think for the designers it would be hard to prove, unless it was very obvious.

  3. #128
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    It seems to me an unlikely thing that a lawyer would be hired to recapture a $6 royalty. I think it would have to be proven that serious monetary damage had been done to make it worthwhile. But that is only my opinion.

  4. #129
    Senior Member marciacp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyMarie
    So, if I make a quilt from a pattern and want to enter it in the State Fair or a local quilt show, I have to get permission from the designer to be able to display it publically? Does that mean that quilt store owners cannot put up a display quilt without permission from the designer? So, if I give away a quilt and that person displays it, they still have to research the pattern and get permission if I didn't put the designer's name on the label?

    Honestly, what would happen if I didn't? I am not making money off my quilt... at most, getting a ribbon. So, there is absolutely no monotary gain on my part, which would mean that I am not causing the designer a loss of income. If anything, I am putting out their design for others to see, and potentially buy the pattern.

    How many of us have posted pictures of quilts we have done and NOT credited the designer? Does that mean that every picture on this board that has not done so is violating copyright? I have purchased at least half a dozen patterns I would not have had I NOT seen someone's quilt on this board. That is free advertising for those designers. For them to say, "NO" would be like shooting themselves in the feet.
    Misty,
    You can absolutely enter a show, or post pictures of any quilts
    you have made without the permission of the designer. And
    you are absolutely right - it is great advertising for the designer.
    In fact, just this morning I received a call from a woman in
    another state wanting to purchase one of my patterns. She
    had been at a retreat all weekend and another lady was making
    a quilt from my pattern. This woman saw it, liked it, and
    got my info so she could contact me to purchase it. If she hadn't
    seen the other lady making my pattern, it would not have
    resulted in a sale for me. Quilter's sharing their work, and
    things they are working on is a great thing for everyone,
    including the designer.

    As I have read many of the posts in this tread, I am seeing
    a lot of misinformation about copyright law. My hope is that no
    one will get scared of posting pictures, sharing their quilts,
    entering shows, or even putting their work in a quilt shop.
    The biggest thing is just don't make photo copies of a pattern
    and pass it out to a class, or a bunch of friends - instead tell
    your class or friends where they can purchase the pattern if
    they like it. That's the bottom line. Otherwise, please feel free
    to continue sharing pictures, etc. That's a good thing and not
    in violation of copyright law.

  5. #130
    Super Member C.Cal Quilt Girl's Avatar
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    So here's one a little off topic but not by much.
    If you decide to teach a class can you instruct students to pick up XX Book to use as a guide?? Or would it be wisest to choose a public domain Example; irish chain or log cabin to work with. These have both been around forever and published i'm sure many times.
    Keep in mind no affilation w/any illustrator, book, etc.

  6. #131
    Senior Member marciacp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C.Cal Quilt Girl
    So here's one a little off topic but not by much.
    If you decide to teach a class can you instruct students to pick up XX Book to use as a guide?? Or would it be wisest to choose a public domain Example; irish chain or log cabin to work with. These have both been around forever and published i'm sure many times.
    Keep in mind no affilation w/any illustrator, book, etc.
    C. Cal,
    Yes, you can absolutely teach from a pattern or
    book, but you need to include in the supplies a
    copy of that pattern or book for each student.
    In other words, when you give the students
    their list of supplies, the pattern or book should
    be a part of that list. We designers are thrilled
    when our pattern or a quilt from a book we
    wrote is taught in a class - that is a great
    compliment. I am coming from both designer
    and quilt teacher of many years. And when I
    was a new quilter, I took several classes.
    The teacher always had everyone in the class
    purchase their own copy of the book or pattern she
    was teaching from - at least the reputable teachers did.

    I do have one more thing to add. I think this thread
    has really scared a lot of people into thinking that if
    they make a quilt from a pattern, book, or magazine,
    and then share that quilt in any way, they will be in trouble.
    I really hate it that this discussion has led to that. Most
    of you are honest quilters who just love to make quilts
    and you shouldn't be this worried that the copyright laws
    are such that you can't continue to do things as you have.

    As I said in an earlier post - if you don't photo copy a
    pattern and then pass it out to a group, try to sell it
    on e-bay or some place like that, or take someone
    else's design and instructions, re-write it somewhat,
    change a percentage of it, and then try to pass it off
    as your own, you are fine.
    Marcia

  7. #132
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    Actually, you do not need permission to sell what you make from a design or pattern. The only thing that is copyrighted is the pattern and/or pictures themselves. An item made from that pattern is yours to do with as you please. A lot of people try to tell you that you can't make something and sell it but you can. Just don't try to sell the actual pattern itself, that you can not do. And NO, you do not have to give the person who posted the tutorial, taught the class etc., credit if you don't want to.

    From the U. S. Copyright office:

    "How do I protect my idea?
    Copyright does not protect ideas, concepts, systems, or methods of doing something. You may express your ideas in writing or drawings and claim copyright in your description, but be aware that copyright will not protect the idea itself as revealed in your written or artistic work".

    So you can learn techniques from a book and make and sell them all you want. I have even seen doll patterns that people sell that try to tell you that you can not change the pattern to suit your needs to make an item. But, if you buy a pattern, you can change it any way you like to make your item and yes you can sell your item and without giving credit.

    So, those people selling their finished products on Etsy are doing it legally.

  8. #133

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    The article in McCall's magazine is written by a patent attorney and contridicts what you say.

  9. #134
    Super Member MistyMarie's Avatar
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    You can sell the pattern you purchased, if it is the original. You just cannot make a copy to keep for yourself before you sell it. You CAN resell a pattern you bought... no different from a piece of art, or a book.

  10. #135
    Community Manager PatriceJ's Avatar
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    get 5 lawyers in a room.
    each lawyer is working for a different client.
    each client has a vested interested in the answer to a question.
    now ask the question.

    you'll get at least 5 differing opinions - each based on the outcome desired by the clients.

    a lawyer who makes his living filing cases on behalf of copyright holders will have armed himself with an arsenal of cases references and interpretations that support his arguments on behalf of his clients.

    a lawyer who makes his living defending the accused will have his own quiver of legal arrows.

    the judge will sift through all the legalize and gobbledygook and use tests and standards of reasonableness as the basis of his ruling.

    i'm very happy to see that everyone is conscientious and does not want to break a law or deprive professional designers of rightful income. but, seriously, most of the worry is unneccessary. the rules of thumb are so simple:

    (1) if you didn't design it, don't say you did. give credit where it's due.
    (2) if you didn't create and publish the pattern, don't pass out copies of it. tell your friends where they can get their own.
    (3) don't pass out copies of pages from books or magazines. tell your friends where they can get their own.
    (4) if you want to enter something into a show, check the rules of that show and follow them.
    (5) put yourself in the shoes of the person trying to make an honest living from her talents.
    (6) if you want to go professional, invest some time in research. it will be your most valuable tool.

    remember The Golden Rule and act accordingly.

    see? easy peezy. ;-)

  11. #136
    Senior Member marciacp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatriceJ
    get 5 lawyers in a room.
    each lawyer is working for a different client.
    each client has a vested interested in the answer to a question.
    now ask the question.

    you'll get at least 5 differing opinions - each based on the outcome desired by the clients.

    a lawyer who makes his living filing cases on behalf of copyright holders will have armed himself with an arsenal of cases references and interpretations that support his arguments on behalf of his clients.

    a lawyer who makes his living defending the accused will have his own quiver of legal arrows.

    the judge will sift through all the legalize and gobbledygook and use tests and standards of reasonableness as the basis of his ruling.

    i'm very happy to see that everyone is conscientious and does not want to break a law or deprive professional designers of rightful income. but, seriously, most of the worry is unneccessary. the rules of thumb are so simple:

    (1) if you didn't design it, don't say you did. give credit where it's due.
    (2) if you didn't create and publish the pattern, don't pass out copies of it. tell your friends where they can get their own.
    (3) don't pass out copies of pages from books or magazines. tell your friends where they can get their own.
    (4) if you want to enter something into a show, check the rules of that show and follow them.
    (5) put yourself in the shoes of the person trying to make an honest living from her talents.
    (6) if you want to go professional, invest some time in research. it will be your most valuable tool.

    remember The Golden Rule and act accordingly.

    see? easy peezy. ;-)

    Well said!! That is exactly what I was trying to convey, but
    I tend to do it with a diatribe, when all I need to do is like
    you did - Thanks!!

  12. #137
    Community Manager PatriceJ's Avatar
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    you haven't lived until you've seen one of my diatribes.

    people start reading as fresh-faced youth. by the time they've slogged through to the end, they're in line to apply for social security. :lol:

  13. #138
    Super Member C.Cal Quilt Girl's Avatar
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    L.O.L Thanks for the helpful information... now I need to go look up the word "diatribe" :)
    Happy Quilting :)

  14. #139
    Senior Member aliaslaceygreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyMarie
    So, if I make a quilt from a pattern and want to enter it in the State Fair or a local quilt show, I have to get permission from the designer to be able to display it publically? Does that mean that quilt store owners cannot put up a display quilt without permission from the designer? So, if I give away a quilt and that person displays it, they still have to research the pattern and get permission if I didn't put the designer's name on the label?

    I really want to stay away from responding to anything on this thread, but this, let me try to explain this.

    If you DO NOT state (and I would think that unless the organization that you are submitting it to requests a letter of permission, that stating is enough) that your quilt at the state fair is from the pattern or book by Jane Doe, or that you based your design on a photograph you saw by Jane Doe, or that you used a kit sold by Jane Doe, you are mis-representing yourself to the judges and the audience, who certainly could and may assume you DESIGNED the quilt as well as sewed and quilted it.

    WHY would you NOT want to give credit where credit is due? It isn't great advertising to the designer if you neglect to say she designed it, because how am I to know this if I wander through the state fair and see your quilt? How can I know that I too can make a Jane Doe quilt?

  15. #140
    Senior Member aliaslaceygreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatriceJ


    (1) if you didn't design it, don't say you did. give credit where it's due.
    (2) if you didn't create and publish the pattern, don't pass out copies of it. tell your friends where they can get their own.
    (3) don't pass out copies of pages from books or magazines. tell your friends where they can get their own.
    (4) if you want to enter something into a show, check the rules of that show and follow them.
    (5) put yourself in the shoes of the person trying to make an honest living from her talents.
    (6) if you want to go professional, invest some time in research. it will be your most valuable tool.

    remember The Golden Rule and act accordingly.

    see? easy peezy. ;-)
    darn it ALL, Patrice!! I didn't read your response before hitting send.

    What you have stated is just about EXACTLY what I have written up in a blog that is about to be posted over the weekend. (Just so ya know, I wrote it YESTERDAY, so they be MY thoughts, my very own. Even if you DID just write all this.:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

  16. #141
    Super Member C.Cal Quilt Girl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aliaslaceygreen
    Quote Originally Posted by PatriceJ


    (1) if you didn't design it, don't say you did. give credit where it's due.
    (2) if you didn't create and publish the pattern, don't pass out copies of it. tell your friends where they can get their own.
    (3) don't pass out copies of pages from books or magazines. tell your friends where they can get their own.
    (4) if you want to enter something into a show, check the rules of that show and follow them.
    (5) put yourself in the shoes of the person trying to make an honest living from her talents.
    (6) if you want to go professional, invest some time in research. it will be your most valuable tool.

    remember The Golden Rule and act accordingly.

    see? easy peezy. ;-)
    darn it ALL, Patrice!! I didn't read your response before hitting send.

    What you have stated is just about EXACTLY what I have written up in a blog that is about to be posted over the weekend. (Just so ya know, I wrote it YESTERDAY, so they be MY thoughts, my very own. Even if you DID just write all this.:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
    Oh no, should I be watching for a Quilters Wet Noodle Slappin contest over the weekend???? :lol: :lol: ;)

  17. #142
    Super Member MistyMarie's Avatar
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    Okay. I have rarely seen a quilt in a show or fair that has included the pattern designer (even at professional booths that show off long-arm skills). , I feel like I got a "well, duh" type of answer. I am trying hard not to feel like I was personally attacked for asking about including the designer's name when this doesn't appear to be the norm at all. Since I have never shown a quilt, I wasn't sure if this was expected since I haven't seen this being done, for the most part, and I doubt that most of the quilts were original creations and not from a pattern somewhere.

  18. #143
    Super Member walen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knlsmith
    Okay, this is just a vent....Thank you for your time. Ok. Now time to make some more bags! :)
    You go right ahead and vent, and I'll vent right along with you! Sometimes folks just don't know what is right, and sometimes they just don't care. Sometimes people take credit for something that they didn't do, plagiarism, copyright infringement, or cheating. The world is a strange place from time to time.

    I have faith that most of us do not steal or cheat. I believe we are honest quilters, enjoying our craft. We love seeing what everyone else has done and love sharing our ideas and sources.

    Sometimes things get very confusing when talking about copyright laws. There have been many ideas brought forward about all of this and all are welcome.

    However, I am sad to notice that some of our friends feel like they were criticized because they expressed an opinion or asked a question.

  19. #144
    Super Member C.Cal Quilt Girl's Avatar
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    Have seen where some shows require, name of the source of pattern, Could be McCalls, or Jane Doe, same as who Quilted the work. The originality is generally your color choices, and work. All other is kind and considerate to give credit where due, hopefully that is the correct source. :)

  20. #145
    Community Manager PatriceJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyMarie
    Okay. I have rarely seen a quilt in a show or fair that has included the pattern designer (even at professional booths that show off long-arm skills). , I feel like I got a "well, duh" type of answer. I am trying hard not to feel like I was personally attacked for asking about including the designer's name when this doesn't appear to be the norm at all. Since I have never shown a quilt, I wasn't sure if this was expected since I haven't seen this being done, for the most part, and I doubt that most of the quilts were original creations and not from a pattern somewhere.
    i think i've read all the way through the topic. i'm fairly certain i didn't read anything that jumped out to me as a personal attack on anybody. i hope i didn't miss something because we definitely don't want such things to happen around here.

    i can promise you that nothing i said was intended to point to or chastise anybody at all, let alone any one person in particular.

    that said, i'm sure i speak for everyone when i say we're sorry if something in the responses made you feel badly. this conversation addresses a subject that is "touchy" and confusing to a lot of people. with so many differing interpretations offered up by countless "experts", debate is unavoidable.

    a spirited debate is not a bad thing. it offers all of us a chance to share our understanding or perspective of the topic at hand. it also offers opportunities to learn something new.

    debate = good. arguments and catfights = bad.

    so far, i think we're well on the "good" side of the line. ;-)

  21. #146
    Community Manager PatriceJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C.Cal Quilt Girl
    Oh no, should I be watching for a Quilters Wet Noodle Slappin contest over the weekend???? :lol: :lol: ;)
    no worries there. i prefer to eat my noodles. ;-) :lol:

    Quote Originally Posted by aliaslaceygreen
    darn it ALL, Patrice!! I didn't read your response before hitting send.

    What you have stated is just about EXACTLY what I have written up in a blog that is about to be posted over the weekend. (Just so ya know, I wrote it YESTERDAY, so they be MY thoughts, my very own. Even if you DID just write all this.:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
    no worries here, either. i'm much too cheap to pay a lawyer. :lol:

  22. #147
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    This article is interesting about the subject.

    http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/...lArticle.shtml

    Carolyn Peters is also a quilter

  23. #148
    Senior Member aliaslaceygreen's Avatar
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    [quote=C.Cal Quilt Girl][quote=aliaslaceygreen]
    Quote Originally Posted by PatriceJ


    Oh no, should I be watching for a Quilters Wet Noodle Slappin contest over the weekend???? :lol: :lol: ;)
    LMBO!!!! Too funny. It IS amazing how Great Minds think alike!!
    :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: All in fun, Patrice, all in fun! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

  24. #149
    Senior Member aliaslaceygreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyMarie
    Okay. I have rarely seen a quilt in a show or fair that has included the pattern designer (even at professional booths that show off long-arm skills). , I feel like I got a "well, duh" type of answer. I am trying hard not to feel like I was personally attacked for asking about including the designer's name when this doesn't appear to be the norm at all. Since I have never shown a quilt, I wasn't sure if this was expected since I haven't seen this being done, for the most part, and I doubt that most of the quilts were original creations and not from a pattern somewhere.
    You WERE NOT personally attacked. Your question was the ONLY one I felt even marginally comfortable answering. As you will note, nowhere in my response did I state any part of copyright law. I asked a question of the general 'you' about how you would feel if it were done to you.

    Two wrongs (or omissions) don't make a right. You don't have to know whether other people are doing what is right to do right yourself.

    I was suggesting that we all place ourselves on the other side of the designers table.

    And for some reason, no matter how carefully I or others phrase things on this board, someone is always willing to jump to the other end of the possible meaning. (Not just you MM, it seems a hobby here... :cry: :cry: :cry: )

  25. #150
    Super Member MistyMarie's Avatar
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    I know that without hearing a tone of voice, or seeing body language expressions, that written communication can often be interpreted in a way that was not meant. I will take it as that.

    I am very well-versed on what constitutes plagarism in the written and digital world, as well as the art world. I did my master's thesis on cyber-plagarism a few years ago. As a writer and English teacher, I constantly talk to my students about the importance of giving credit where credit is due.

    However, since I don't see designer's names showing up on the paperwork that goes with many quilts in a show or a fair, I asked the question I did. I honestly don't think those quilters intended to mislead anyone. Granted, I have never been to a juried show... mostly guild shows and state fairs. I am sure in some of the fancy, shmancy quilt shows, there are stricter guidelines to adhere to.

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