leonf

Ok I am late to the party, but my tiwn medallion nekked lady has a needle length decal at the[ATTACH=CONFIG]588688[/ATTACH] bottom of the pillar.

OurWorkbench

Have you laid a 15x1 needle next to it? Is there a difference like Stefan shows?

Janey - Neat people never make the exciting discoveries I do.

Stefan

Hi Janey,

I looked at the linked images and the #78 post of the green wrinkle finish machine that is like my TYPE J with the same stitch length plate as jkniter shows. Thanks. I knew it was not from 1889 or so. SN: 883,952.
I missed that Rockford listing but my link only had Orange listed. Um? Oh well you nailed it. 1953 is very believable.

I am not sure what that LLB underneath on the cast chassis is or what 201-1 and the 2 on the next 'line' in the casting mean.
My 883952 does not line up with LLB and 1951-1952 ending with 883779 at the top of the page. LLC on the manual and the name plate nails mine as line two, 1952-1953. Maybe the LLB chassis frame were used for both LLBs and LLCs on the production line. There's a lot of starting 822624 variations in that listing. Bizarre.

I read the other links about the needle lengths. I didn't have a real one and so I did the next best thing with the better image of the NLB image hole shown on page 9.

Measuring all these different needles against my calibrated-laserjet NLB image showed up some differences I never noticed. First, the tops of the eye positions seem to be constant but some larger needle sizes have a longer hole opening and that is added onto the bottom of the hole eye towards the point or tip.
The needles I have seemed to all be longer at the top buy 1 mm, whether rounded or cone shaped on the end.

So, the critical distance of the top of the needle to the top of the eye is the distance that you have to set the needles at for a side-by-side to compare, IMO. Someone must have a for real CC1221 needle to compare in a photograph with the various sizes and any digital vernier numbers in mm or a ruler in the image.

It would be real nice to nail down in photos the exact differences for all to see AND save to memory.

The published chart on this thread were a mixed bag for 15X1 needles. So, I measured mine with my vernier to make sure of what I had. Unfortunately, it is had to estimate down to 0.1 mm where the vernier points are exactly lined up to that fine resolution, even with my head magnifier. I did the best I could with what I had.

I am surprised that nobody had done this comparison in this much detail before. I mean, these needles are hard to get and will be harder to get in the future. So, nailing this down now is important to me, at least.

I could be wrong but it seemed like the 15 means 1.5 inches plus a small amount more in inches. That's speculation.

HTH,

Stefan

leonf

I'll check for a 15-1 length when I am closer to it.

Stefan

Hi,

I did a needle comparison photograph of a 9, 11, 14, and 16 size needles with two rulers set at various point on the better resolution NLB manual CC needle calibrated LaserJet image.

I need to clear something up that confused me too. Cutting off 1 mm refers to lowering the gap from the top of the eye of the needle to the top of the hook at
the hook timing position.
My hook is not a point. It does not looked damaged, dented, or broken off. It is chisel shaped and sharp. So, the range of the timing gap on my machine
is 3.0 to 3.5 mm because of that chisel shape.

To lower the timing gap to the accepted hook range of 1.8 to 2.4 mm, I need to saw or cut off 1 mm from the top of the needle.
That will lower the range down to an acceptable hook gap timing range of 2.0 to 2.5 mm.
This is the gap when you are only looking at the hook timing gap with the hook behind the needle and the needle is on the up stroke.

On the other hand, if you look at the physical layout in this new photograph, you can see that I have lined up the top of the needle eye on the NLB image with the other four needles,
sizes I mentioned.
Clearly, the tops extends 2.8 mm above the top of the NLB manual's calibrated CC1221 image of this top I created. Cutting that much off will almost turn a current needle into a CC1221
needle except for the slightly long tip area.
The smaller size needles do show a slightly shorter 'top of the eye' to 'point of the tip' distance.
The metal needles are not all that different but they are longer lengths as you go to higher needle numbers towards #16 or #18.

The top ruler is set at the 35.7 mm mark and lined up with the top of the NLB CC1221 needle image top.

The bottom ruler is to show the lengths of the new needles but is slightly displaced left. Moving all these into position on a piece of paper was not easy to do. The dotted lines are projections of various needle positions of interest to me.

Lining up the tops of the needle eyes was the priority.

The distance from the tops of the longer new needles to the top of the eyes was pretty constant.
New needle numbers are in pencil.

So, there are three choices for LLC model newbie me. I can use the standard length 15X1 needle, a shorter by 1 mm needle, or a shorter by 2.8 mm needle.
It all depends on how the hook catches the thread at the hook timing position and if the needle clears the top of the fabric and presser foot while sewing at all speeds.
I can't do that until maybe Tuesday when I will finally get a complete tensioner assembly.

The feed dog timing seems to be fine for now. I'll see after Tuesday how that timing works out.

HTH,

Stefan

Stefan

Hi,

I got my very old tensioner but it was from 1931-1940 and had no tension release pin mechanism. It had a completely different tension release.
I decided this tensioner was probably made in 1937 based on the serial number and model AE in the listings.

After some thought, I made a tension double D release disc for my 1952-53 tensioner post. The 1937 mounting post had no hole in the mounting screw or the tension post.
So, I made the double disc out of #14 copper wire hammered slightly flat to fit the tension post split gap between the thread cut post halves.
This was bent into a curved S disc and works fine. It pushes the 'beehive cup plate' away from the flat face plate when the presser foot is raised and the original 1953 release pin is pushed.
The thread is now actually released by raising the presser foot and lift lever.

Long story short, my New Home LLC Model sews beautifully and fairly smooth now at any speed. No popping. No snapping. No stalls. No jams. No cut threads.

The current brand new standard needle works totally fine and clearances are not a problem with this longer needle available now.

The hook timing gap is still at 3.5 mm and that needs to be decreased with a 1 mm cut off modern needle, IMO.

I sewed a superman red S on some jean material. Then, I doubled it over and it sewed fine. I doubled that to four layers and it sewed fine.

I added one more single layer and the needle made a very slight noise at slow speed. I quit that test. Four layers of jeans is the limit for this machine.

There were no clearance issues with the feed dog or its movements, and so I am not messing with the feed dog timing.

Here are some measurements of various parts on my LLC, 'New Home' Rotary. AKA, Free Westinghouse and Elgin.

Bobbin with many holes like a current class 15: diameter: 21.85 mm or 0.286".
Height or thickness: 7.23 mm or 0.284".
OD of spool at the thread core: 6.09 mm or 0.239".
Bobbin core hole ID: 6.10 mm.

Bobbin case center post hole ID: 3.95 mm.
Bobbin case center post hole OD: 5.76 mm or 0.227".
Bobbin case inside and much larger diameter ID: 22.13 mm.

NH motor shaft OD: 7.26 mm or 0.286"; has two drilled mounting holes for a set screw. So, the rubber tire can be offset a few mm further out.
NH old rubber OD: 28.7 mm or 1.109" or about 1-7/16".
NH LLC rubber pulley has an integrated bobbin winder shaft on the outer end and the new Janome ones at supply houses don't have that outer shaft bobbin winder feature.

HTH,

Stefan