Meet The Queen
04-10-2014, 07:57 AM
#15
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 6
I just acquired the same machine as yours! It really is beautiful. I've found the same information on my own as has been posted by the users... I've also purchased the manual and it's coming in the mail. Would you be willing to share the information you've collected? So far all I really know is that it was manufactured by Davis before Davis was purchased by White (~1900) -- and I'm not even sure that's right. I'd love to have a date for it!
Also, as you can see in my pictures at the link below, my bobbin winding assembly is different from yours -- as a matter of fact, I haven't found a single picture of a machine with my same assembly! I wonder if mine was added later, or if it's a more primitive model? I'd love to hear your opinions!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/122824553@N02/
Also, as you can see in my pictures at the link below, my bobbin winding assembly is different from yours -- as a matter of fact, I haven't found a single picture of a machine with my same assembly! I wonder if mine was added later, or if it's a more primitive model? I'd love to hear your opinions!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/122824553@N02/
Last edited by demipepper; 04-10-2014 at 08:00 AM.
04-10-2014, 08:29 AM
#16
Super Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 8,121
Davis went out of business in the late 1920's. I've not seen any Davis machines with a fiddle base also.
Does the shuttle have a pin in it? that is a very unique and distinctive White design. This does not have any of the distinctive White lines, however I know White made some very different looking machines after they acquired Domestic ( I've not read that they ever acquired Davis). And while early Domestic machines are fiddle base and do look similar, they have an oval needle plate. Davis and White are both rectangular. Another Davis design is to have the belt on the outside of the flywheel, and White is inside.
I love researching older machines - I wouldn't take too much into what "worthpoint" says as they say "not made by Sears" and Sears never made ANY machines - they always had some other company making them for Sears.
BTW - that IS an earlier White style bobbin winder assembly. I've seen that on early White machines and keep getting tempted to buy one with it. This could be early White VS design - and then they went more like the AG Mason when they got involved with that company. So much to try to figure out - and so little documentation to help.
Does the shuttle have a pin in it? that is a very unique and distinctive White design. This does not have any of the distinctive White lines, however I know White made some very different looking machines after they acquired Domestic ( I've not read that they ever acquired Davis). And while early Domestic machines are fiddle base and do look similar, they have an oval needle plate. Davis and White are both rectangular. Another Davis design is to have the belt on the outside of the flywheel, and White is inside.
I love researching older machines - I wouldn't take too much into what "worthpoint" says as they say "not made by Sears" and Sears never made ANY machines - they always had some other company making them for Sears.
BTW - that IS an earlier White style bobbin winder assembly. I've seen that on early White machines and keep getting tempted to buy one with it. This could be early White VS design - and then they went more like the AG Mason when they got involved with that company. So much to try to figure out - and so little documentation to help.
Last edited by Macybaby; 04-10-2014 at 08:32 AM.
04-10-2014, 08:52 AM
#17
Super Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Frederick, OK
Posts: 2,031
Originally Posted by Macybaby
.... This could be early White VS design - and then they went more like the AG Mason when they got involved with that company.
I’ve always heard that AG Mason never made any of their own machines. They just sold them.
CD in Oklahoma
04-10-2014, 12:17 PM
#19
Super Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 8,121
CD - I've been reading a bit about them, and it seems like they may have made some of their own machines, and then they started making them for others, and at some point they were acquired by another, and basically absorbed, but they still used them as the "name" of the mfg of the machines.
All the White machines that have AG Mason on them are made by White (or for White), but it sounds like there may be some earlier machines that aren't quite the same as the White ones. I think one of the few ways to dig into this will be to start looking at advertisements in the Smithsonian records - but most of them aren't online at this time.
I find it all fascinating - and each time I start looking into something, I find other information. There is a lot of conflicting info - and a lot where it's speculation based on items found, but no one will ever know for sure as the actual records are gone.
Most "history" books I've encountered don't spend much time on the 1900-1930 era machines, but concentrate on the earlier years.
And just when everyone thinks they've got a grip on something - a machine no one has seen before shows up, and it makes everyone wonder . . .
This Queen is one of those - it has a lot of marks for White, but also a lot that are different, and there aren't any other similar models either. So no one knows for sure if this is a machine made by some other MFG using some of White's patents - or a machine made FOR White by another factory as a "test" . Several companies stopped making their own machines (closed their factories) before they stopped doing business all together.
Maybe if I'm still interested in all this when I retire, I'll have fun researching it. Right now I'm just having fun finding out what I can find out - and I know I'm not an authority, but we're just all machine enthusiasts here, and it's ok to have fun guessing and the like. it's not like someone is going to be financially ruined by it. Well, unless they get addicted and spend all their money on vintage machines!
All the White machines that have AG Mason on them are made by White (or for White), but it sounds like there may be some earlier machines that aren't quite the same as the White ones. I think one of the few ways to dig into this will be to start looking at advertisements in the Smithsonian records - but most of them aren't online at this time.
I find it all fascinating - and each time I start looking into something, I find other information. There is a lot of conflicting info - and a lot where it's speculation based on items found, but no one will ever know for sure as the actual records are gone.
Most "history" books I've encountered don't spend much time on the 1900-1930 era machines, but concentrate on the earlier years.
And just when everyone thinks they've got a grip on something - a machine no one has seen before shows up, and it makes everyone wonder . . .
This Queen is one of those - it has a lot of marks for White, but also a lot that are different, and there aren't any other similar models either. So no one knows for sure if this is a machine made by some other MFG using some of White's patents - or a machine made FOR White by another factory as a "test" . Several companies stopped making their own machines (closed their factories) before they stopped doing business all together.
Maybe if I'm still interested in all this when I retire, I'll have fun researching it. Right now I'm just having fun finding out what I can find out - and I know I'm not an authority, but we're just all machine enthusiasts here, and it's ok to have fun guessing and the like. it's not like someone is going to be financially ruined by it. Well, unless they get addicted and spend all their money on vintage machines!
04-10-2014, 01:54 PM
#20
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 6
I'm so thrilled to find all of you interested researchers! Perhaps you already know this, but here's some more information I found today.
Here are some photos of other Queens that I was shown:
http://needlebar.org/cm/thumbnails.php?album=327
As you can see, I have the same exact machine as itowcrab (theirs has a slightly later serial number than mine, 28356 - mine is 23311), cabinet and all. So I'm willing to guess that the cabinet is original! If the cabinet is any clue to the maker, I would guess White -- they also have circles in the decoration of the treadle itself.
Also, I got an email from Katie Farmer, of the White Sewing Machine Research Project, that says:
These fiddle base White machines were made from
approximately 1893 through 1920. Yours makes twenty-two that have been reported out of
the 87,168 that had been manufactured by 1920. Unfortunately, we have a very incomplete
dating series at this point. It begins at 1910 with 84,400 and shows that there were many
years with no production. Before 1910, we have only a payment receipt donated by the late
Eleanor Beck dated 14 December 1901 for a Queen with a serial number of 60,740. So you
can see that every report of a fiddle base White is important and that any dated paperwork
is critical. These machines have been reported with the following badge names: Queen, the
most common; Grand Union; Stockman; and Sterling. Your Queen is the third earliest fiddle
base White to have been reported. The sole Sterling is the earliest.
I would also really appreciate anyone's advice on finding a foot for this machine. It appears to screw onto the bottom of the rod (?) as opposed to the back, like on newer machines. I've seen other early Whites with this kind of foot, but I'm afraid of buying one online just to get it in the mail and find it doesn't fit!
Here are some photos of other Queens that I was shown:
http://needlebar.org/cm/thumbnails.php?album=327
As you can see, I have the same exact machine as itowcrab (theirs has a slightly later serial number than mine, 28356 - mine is 23311), cabinet and all. So I'm willing to guess that the cabinet is original! If the cabinet is any clue to the maker, I would guess White -- they also have circles in the decoration of the treadle itself.
Also, I got an email from Katie Farmer, of the White Sewing Machine Research Project, that says:
These fiddle base White machines were made from
approximately 1893 through 1920. Yours makes twenty-two that have been reported out of
the 87,168 that had been manufactured by 1920. Unfortunately, we have a very incomplete
dating series at this point. It begins at 1910 with 84,400 and shows that there were many
years with no production. Before 1910, we have only a payment receipt donated by the late
Eleanor Beck dated 14 December 1901 for a Queen with a serial number of 60,740. So you
can see that every report of a fiddle base White is important and that any dated paperwork
is critical. These machines have been reported with the following badge names: Queen, the
most common; Grand Union; Stockman; and Sterling. Your Queen is the third earliest fiddle
base White to have been reported. The sole Sterling is the earliest.
I would also really appreciate anyone's advice on finding a foot for this machine. It appears to screw onto the bottom of the rod (?) as opposed to the back, like on newer machines. I've seen other early Whites with this kind of foot, but I'm afraid of buying one online just to get it in the mail and find it doesn't fit!
Last edited by demipepper; 04-10-2014 at 02:04 PM.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
