Quilt group talk - what are your tension bugaboos?
01-29-2016, 03:06 AM
#51
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[QUOTE=KenmoreGal2;7448882]Not a tension issue but since you brought it up.....
I get a bit of thread stuck in the bobbin area quite often, I believe between the race and the hook. I've pinpointed it to when I am just beginning a line of stitches. It's often the first stitch I take, I can tell right away that it's stuck. I tilt the machine back, open the bobbin area up, remove the bobbin and hook and take out the thread. Then everything is fine. Why does that happen? Is it just a peculiarity of my machine?]
This happens because you are not starting to sew with the needle all the way to the top. Do this test, open your bobbin area and turn your hand wheel and make a stitch. Note the bobbin thread when the needle is all the way down and again when the needle is all the way up. As you wil see the thread is still wrapped around the bobbin area until the needle gets to the top. You can also see that with the needle up but not all the way up, thread can still not be clear of the bobbin area. If you start and the needle is down you have bobbin thread going a bit wild down there from when you made your last stitches.
I get a bit of thread stuck in the bobbin area quite often, I believe between the race and the hook. I've pinpointed it to when I am just beginning a line of stitches. It's often the first stitch I take, I can tell right away that it's stuck. I tilt the machine back, open the bobbin area up, remove the bobbin and hook and take out the thread. Then everything is fine. Why does that happen? Is it just a peculiarity of my machine?]
This happens because you are not starting to sew with the needle all the way to the top. Do this test, open your bobbin area and turn your hand wheel and make a stitch. Note the bobbin thread when the needle is all the way down and again when the needle is all the way up. As you wil see the thread is still wrapped around the bobbin area until the needle gets to the top. You can also see that with the needle up but not all the way up, thread can still not be clear of the bobbin area. If you start and the needle is down you have bobbin thread going a bit wild down there from when you made your last stitches.
Last edited by QuiltnNan; 02-10-2016 at 07:27 AM. Reason: remove shouting
01-29-2016, 01:57 PM
#53
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This happens because you are not starting to sew with the needle all the way to the top. Do this test, open your bobbin area and turn your hand wheel and make a stitch. Note the bobbin thread when the needle is all the way down and again when the needle is all the way up. As you wil see the thread is still wrapped around the bobbin area until the needle gets to the top. You can also see that with the needle up but not all the way up, thread can still not be clear of the bobbin area. If you start and the needle is down you have bobbin thread going a bit wild down there from when you made your last stitches. In other words, ALWAYS START AND STOP WITH THE NEEDLE ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP.
01-29-2016, 02:15 PM
#54
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Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 82
I guess Tammi got all the problems she needs for this session, but this thread (sic) in itself has turned out to be a great tension tutorial. Let's keep it up.
I know that I fiddled about a lot, but didn't really make progress until I understood the stitch forming process. It's easier to relate to the different problems and suggested solutions once you understand why there needs to be tension to snug up the stitch in the first place. Every machine manual has the usual graphics of the under-, over- or balanced stitch, but they don't really explain what's going on. Nor do they explain the need for all the big movements and the big loops in the upper thread path. What goes on under the hood is simply magic, but once you understand it the fear of working on it disappears.
Showing an animation or good pictures, would be a good start. That's also a good opportunity to show that, allthough the needle thread takes abuse and does all the work in the making, the upper and lower threads form identical parts from there on, and share the load equally for the rest of the (balanced) seam's life.
Well, maybe not that critical in quilts, I don't know. I keep forgetting that this a quilting forum, and I'm only in it for the machines.
On the more specific level: Anything that happens every once in a while, or at the odd stitch, is not a tension adjustment issue.
It has been discussed, and I agree, that spool yanking is underrated as a problem. Upstream of several friction points and disks, it takes very little force change on the spool to create significant changes at the needle, enough to tighten up the loop and miss the hook I guess. Although there are solutions as discussed, I think the modern way with the fixed, horizontal spool is an improvement. You can find this solution on some pretty old industrials, so it's not complete heresy.
I don't know if snags and stutters are as critical down below, but I am Catholic about bobbin condition. Every time I load one in the casing, I test for tension and evenness by pulling thread slowly off the bobbin, and feeling it. Unless the thread is full of knots it should come off in a completely even and smooth manner, no jerks or ticks. I guess different contact areas for different systems - horisontal of vertical - but burrs and nicks, dents and warps, will affect the action. I know some people are fairly religious about bobbin pedigree, and I don't know enough to argue, but personally I don't feel bad about replacing a tired metal one with a fresh plastic substitute. You don't have to worry about a plastic one being slightly warped - it's good or broken. I know for a fact that my 201 behaves much better after I replaced the original bobbins that came with it.
Good luck, Tammi
PS: Now I see that Miriam said most of this already, not needing so many words. Oh, well.
I know that I fiddled about a lot, but didn't really make progress until I understood the stitch forming process. It's easier to relate to the different problems and suggested solutions once you understand why there needs to be tension to snug up the stitch in the first place. Every machine manual has the usual graphics of the under-, over- or balanced stitch, but they don't really explain what's going on. Nor do they explain the need for all the big movements and the big loops in the upper thread path. What goes on under the hood is simply magic, but once you understand it the fear of working on it disappears.
Showing an animation or good pictures, would be a good start. That's also a good opportunity to show that, allthough the needle thread takes abuse and does all the work in the making, the upper and lower threads form identical parts from there on, and share the load equally for the rest of the (balanced) seam's life.
Well, maybe not that critical in quilts, I don't know. I keep forgetting that this a quilting forum, and I'm only in it for the machines.
On the more specific level: Anything that happens every once in a while, or at the odd stitch, is not a tension adjustment issue.
It has been discussed, and I agree, that spool yanking is underrated as a problem. Upstream of several friction points and disks, it takes very little force change on the spool to create significant changes at the needle, enough to tighten up the loop and miss the hook I guess. Although there are solutions as discussed, I think the modern way with the fixed, horizontal spool is an improvement. You can find this solution on some pretty old industrials, so it's not complete heresy.
I don't know if snags and stutters are as critical down below, but I am Catholic about bobbin condition. Every time I load one in the casing, I test for tension and evenness by pulling thread slowly off the bobbin, and feeling it. Unless the thread is full of knots it should come off in a completely even and smooth manner, no jerks or ticks. I guess different contact areas for different systems - horisontal of vertical - but burrs and nicks, dents and warps, will affect the action. I know some people are fairly religious about bobbin pedigree, and I don't know enough to argue, but personally I don't feel bad about replacing a tired metal one with a fresh plastic substitute. You don't have to worry about a plastic one being slightly warped - it's good or broken. I know for a fact that my 201 behaves much better after I replaced the original bobbins that came with it.
Good luck, Tammi
PS: Now I see that Miriam said most of this already, not needing so many words. Oh, well.
Last edited by steihy; 01-29-2016 at 02:24 PM.
01-29-2016, 05:30 PM
#56
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I guess Tammi got all the problems she needs for this session, but this thread (sic) in itself has turned out to be a great tension tutorial. Let's keep it up.
I know that I fiddled about a lot, but didn't really make progress until I understood the stitch forming process. It's easier to relate to the different problems and suggested solutions once you understand why there needs to be tension to snug up the stitch in the first place. Every machine manual has the usual graphics of the under-, over- or balanced stitch, but they don't really explain what's going on. Nor do they explain the need for all the big movements and the big loops in the upper thread path. What goes on under the hood is simply magic, but once you understand it the fear of working on it disappears.
Showing an animation or good pictures, would be a good start. That's also a good opportunity to show that, allthough the needle thread takes abuse and does all the work in the making, the upper and lower threads form identical parts from there on, and share the load equally for the rest of the (balanced) seam's life.
Well, maybe not that critical in quilts, I don't know. I keep forgetting that this a quilting forum, and I'm only in it for the machines.
On the more specific level: Anything that happens every once in a while, or at the odd stitch, is not a tension adjustment issue.
It has been discussed, and I agree, that spool yanking is underrated as a problem. Upstream of several friction points and disks, it takes very little force change on the spool to create significant changes at the needle, enough to tighten up the loop and miss the hook I guess. Although there are solutions as discussed, I think the modern way with the fixed, horizontal spool is an improvement. You can find this solution on some pretty old industrials, so it's not complete heresy.
I don't know if snags and stutters are as critical down below, but I am Catholic about bobbin condition. Every time I load one in the casing, I test for tension and evenness by pulling thread slowly off the bobbin, and feeling it. Unless the thread is full of knots it should come off in a completely even and smooth manner, no jerks or ticks. I guess different contact areas for different systems - horisontal of vertical - but burrs and nicks, dents and warps, will affect the action. I know some people are fairly religious about bobbin pedigree, and I don't know enough to argue, but personally I don't feel bad about replacing a tired metal one with a fresh plastic substitute. You don't have to worry about a plastic one being slightly warped - it's good or broken. I know for a fact that my 201 behaves much better after I replaced the original bobbins that came with it.
Good luck, Tammi
PS: Now I see that Miriam said most of this already, not needing so many words. Oh, well.
I know that I fiddled about a lot, but didn't really make progress until I understood the stitch forming process. It's easier to relate to the different problems and suggested solutions once you understand why there needs to be tension to snug up the stitch in the first place. Every machine manual has the usual graphics of the under-, over- or balanced stitch, but they don't really explain what's going on. Nor do they explain the need for all the big movements and the big loops in the upper thread path. What goes on under the hood is simply magic, but once you understand it the fear of working on it disappears.
Showing an animation or good pictures, would be a good start. That's also a good opportunity to show that, allthough the needle thread takes abuse and does all the work in the making, the upper and lower threads form identical parts from there on, and share the load equally for the rest of the (balanced) seam's life.
Well, maybe not that critical in quilts, I don't know. I keep forgetting that this a quilting forum, and I'm only in it for the machines.
On the more specific level: Anything that happens every once in a while, or at the odd stitch, is not a tension adjustment issue.
It has been discussed, and I agree, that spool yanking is underrated as a problem. Upstream of several friction points and disks, it takes very little force change on the spool to create significant changes at the needle, enough to tighten up the loop and miss the hook I guess. Although there are solutions as discussed, I think the modern way with the fixed, horizontal spool is an improvement. You can find this solution on some pretty old industrials, so it's not complete heresy.
I don't know if snags and stutters are as critical down below, but I am Catholic about bobbin condition. Every time I load one in the casing, I test for tension and evenness by pulling thread slowly off the bobbin, and feeling it. Unless the thread is full of knots it should come off in a completely even and smooth manner, no jerks or ticks. I guess different contact areas for different systems - horisontal of vertical - but burrs and nicks, dents and warps, will affect the action. I know some people are fairly religious about bobbin pedigree, and I don't know enough to argue, but personally I don't feel bad about replacing a tired metal one with a fresh plastic substitute. You don't have to worry about a plastic one being slightly warped - it's good or broken. I know for a fact that my 201 behaves much better after I replaced the original bobbins that came with it.
Good luck, Tammi
PS: Now I see that Miriam said most of this already, not needing so many words. Oh, well.
I'll take a 201 with me. I find without the retaining piece and the dogs removed that it's one of the easiest mechanisms to show a stitch being formed. That's why I used it when I made the YouTube video about how timing works (essentially the same thing that we're talking about here.)
When I started hanging out here, I didn't quilt either. I only started quilting in 2013. The machines did and still do come first for me and I suspect that's true for a few of us here.
Tension is critical in quilting - if it's not right fabric is damaged or seams gap or things ravel. Additionally, the way we do surface design has changed. We don't run tensions nearly as tight as we used to, poly for surface design is being "requested" by museums because cotton is rotting and the design is lost, poly isn't "stronger" than cotton anymore (in some cases) but as most things, it's taking time for that to filter through the industry.
I do like the horizontal pins, or at least pins that are more suited for the threads most commonly available these days. That's why I advocate for thread stands. In fact, I even built a thread stand for my embroidery machine to take the thread off the machine - even though it has a proper horizontal pin for the thread I use. That reminds me, I must bring a thread stand on Monday. And a roll of toilet paper.
Bobbin thread delivery is as important (or nearly so) as the upper thread delivery. As you mentioned, it has to be balanced. If it speeds off because of a lack of tension, the stitch will lock above the layers, or worse. If it's tight, it will make the stitch lock below the layers, or cause breakage or other sorts of issues like eyelashing in FMQ.
I'm not a puritan when it comes to bobbins. I believe that if it works right in the machine, I use it. I will take a known good plastic bobbin before a damaged metal one any day. Any time one of my bobbins bounces off the floor, it's examined for integrity or tossed (some of the plastics I have are rewound disposables. Those I just toss if they've hit the ground because I usually find them by stepping on them. *sigh*). The only place I AM a stickler is no metal bobbins in plastic cases. They wear the plastic out. I've seen bobbin cases with all sorts of wear from this.
It does bear noting that in some cases there's enough of a weight change here to require a bobbin tension adjustment too. This might be why some people say that plastic bobbins don't work as well in their vintage machines.
I agree. A balanced stitch isn't actually the whole story, so even when the stitch is balanced it can often be improved. FMQ introduces a whole other set of factors - needle deflection, timing of the movement of the sandwich and then when you get into frame quilting even having the sandwich too tight or too loose or too high or too low will cause issues like skipped stitches and "tension" problems.
01-29-2016, 09:05 PM
#57
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Tammi, I have just finished re-reading this thread. Everything you've pointed out has been "right on"! I've watched my son (a former SM Mechanic) take machines apart because "it's not stitching right, the thread is breaking, etc., etc." The biggest offender he would find is "LINT", "LINT" and more "LINT". Cleaning up the bobbin case, as well as the rest of the machine, is critical. I've enjoyed reading this thread and I'll be checking out some more of your articles! Thank you.
Jeanette
Jeanette
01-29-2016, 10:16 PM
#58
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Tammi, I have just finished re-reading this thread. Everything you've pointed out has been "right on"! I've watched my son (a former SM Mechanic) take machines apart because "it's not stitching right, the thread is breaking, etc., etc." The biggest offender he would find is "LINT", "LINT" and more "LINT". Cleaning up the bobbin case, as well as the rest of the machine, is critical. I've enjoyed reading this thread and I'll be checking out some more of your articles! Thank you.
Jeanette
Jeanette
Another thing about checking tension:
Can we talk about the "Bald headed Man"?
Especially with some of the thin fabrics we sometimes use, depending on the thread being used, it's actually OK to see the very top of the bald headed man's head on the front and the back of the work - This is just a function of the fabric not closing over top of the stitches, and the curve created by the threads twisting over each other in the fabric to make the stitch. Railroad tracks however, are not OK and should be addressed.
How do you tell the difference? You can't feel the top of the bald headed man's head if you run your fingernail down the seam line, railroad tracks though will make a "snap snap snap" as you go over them.
If you separate the layers of both of those stitch samples, here's where they'll also be different:
- The bald headed man stitches will be a nice tight seam.
- The railroad stitches will allow some gapping, resulting in a loose, weak seam.
Last edited by ArchaicArcane; 01-29-2016 at 10:32 PM.
01-30-2016, 05:15 AM
#59
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You said "Can we talk about the "Bald headed Man"? --- Please explain this!! A google search turned up some mighty interesting things but none that I think you were talking about. 
(bald men who sew, hair weaves .....) I think I understand what you meant but I'd like to be sure.
(bald men who sew, hair weaves .....) I think I understand what you meant but I'd like to be sure.
01-30-2016, 05:55 AM
#60
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Last night I was trying to use the Pfaff 60 treadle, I adjusted the top and bottom tensions trying to get a nice stitch. Alas nothing was working. 
It wasn't breaking the thread, but the top thread tension was just too loose; I could pull thread out easily on the back side of the pieces I was sewing.
Finally at my wits end, I changed the needle and put Aurifil #50 thread in it top and bottom; it solved the tension problems, after all that its sewing like it should. Gertrude was being a very stubborn German lady, she wanted a different thread.
Sharon in Texas
It wasn't breaking the thread, but the top thread tension was just too loose; I could pull thread out easily on the back side of the pieces I was sewing.
Finally at my wits end, I changed the needle and put Aurifil #50 thread in it top and bottom; it solved the tension problems, after all that its sewing like it should. Gertrude was being a very stubborn German lady, she wanted a different thread.
Sharon in Texas
Last edited by purplefiend; 01-30-2016 at 05:58 AM.
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