What teachers make..................
09-22-2011, 07:55 AM
#92
Super Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Grew up in WV but retired in Between, GA
Posts: 1,046
Please, to those who wonder how teachers treat the support staff: After my brother lost his good paying job, he took a job as school custodian. When he suddenly died last Novemeber, the outpouring of love and support was unbelievable. They closed the school he worked for on the day of his funeral because so many wanted to attend that they could not get enough subs in to take their places.
As for getting paid in the summer----their salary is just spread out over the year and they actually are only paid for the months they work. Most of them are woring other jobs in the summer including tutoring and summer school teaching.
As for getting paid in the summer----their salary is just spread out over the year and they actually are only paid for the months they work. Most of them are woring other jobs in the summer including tutoring and summer school teaching.
09-22-2011, 12:01 PM
#93
Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 49
Thanks for your insight Scoutingsquirrel, it has led me to more questions though.
As a product of the British education system,I seem to recall that a lot of the curriculum is pretty much similar one year to the next, with a few changes,(i.e.The examining board may change out an author for another in Eng Lit), so quite a lot of prep work would come from last year?
As for extra expense for teachers who cannot take holiday outside of the school holidays - most schools will not allow parents to take children out of school for holidays so I think parents have the same restrictions as the teachers on that one.
You are spot on with the need to have longer holidays - time to give those stressed teachers more time to stretch the workload over lets reduce the summer holidays in half.
Stress, I know people who work in call centres who have sickleave based on stress - apparently stress can be found in all walks of life.
I don't recall a teacher ever peeing themselves in a classroom, I do recal being set an assignment and the teacher leaving the classroom for a short period ( a toilet break?)
I do recall the teachers taking coffee breaks during the recess breaks, they even had a lovely lounge to do this in. I also recall teachers bringing into class beverages.
Where are the teachers unions on all these terrible workhouse conditions!!
The children are natural carriers of viruses a you pointed out, they not only spread it at school they also take them home! However when I went to work some inconsiderate parent brought it there too so we had to work under the weather.
The teaching day is 8am to 8pm?..but the children leave at around 3pm? what is going on in that time?
I applaud your extra curricula activities ( scouts) but would gently point out that I suspect you would perhaps have done this regardless of being a teacher or anything else - a lot of parents spent their free time doing such activities ( they don't feel it is relevant to go to their boss and include it in time spent relevant to my work)
More deserving of longer holidays...more deserving than who?
I have met people in all kinds of work places that are dedicated to their jobs, they go the extra mile, and when I read the original post it struck me as odd that it was a CEO that was used rather than any other position. The CEO will measure his/her sucess by results achieved ( usually sales, or turnover) some teachers can be measured by the examination results achieved, perhaps that is what is meant by what do you make?
Some people wish to make teaching a "special" case, as in dedicated,vocational, inspiring bunch of people who put the extra in everything they do - which is fine but then to hear we dont get paid enough, we dont get this, we dont get that, removes the profession from the special pedestal to straight forward "just doing a job that I want to be paid for "....you can't have your cake and eat it.
As a product of the British education system,I seem to recall that a lot of the curriculum is pretty much similar one year to the next, with a few changes,(i.e.The examining board may change out an author for another in Eng Lit), so quite a lot of prep work would come from last year?
As for extra expense for teachers who cannot take holiday outside of the school holidays - most schools will not allow parents to take children out of school for holidays so I think parents have the same restrictions as the teachers on that one.
You are spot on with the need to have longer holidays - time to give those stressed teachers more time to stretch the workload over lets reduce the summer holidays in half.
Stress, I know people who work in call centres who have sickleave based on stress - apparently stress can be found in all walks of life.
I don't recall a teacher ever peeing themselves in a classroom, I do recal being set an assignment and the teacher leaving the classroom for a short period ( a toilet break?)
I do recall the teachers taking coffee breaks during the recess breaks, they even had a lovely lounge to do this in. I also recall teachers bringing into class beverages.
Where are the teachers unions on all these terrible workhouse conditions!!
The children are natural carriers of viruses a you pointed out, they not only spread it at school they also take them home! However when I went to work some inconsiderate parent brought it there too so we had to work under the weather.
The teaching day is 8am to 8pm?..but the children leave at around 3pm? what is going on in that time?
I applaud your extra curricula activities ( scouts) but would gently point out that I suspect you would perhaps have done this regardless of being a teacher or anything else - a lot of parents spent their free time doing such activities ( they don't feel it is relevant to go to their boss and include it in time spent relevant to my work)
More deserving of longer holidays...more deserving than who?
I have met people in all kinds of work places that are dedicated to their jobs, they go the extra mile, and when I read the original post it struck me as odd that it was a CEO that was used rather than any other position. The CEO will measure his/her sucess by results achieved ( usually sales, or turnover) some teachers can be measured by the examination results achieved, perhaps that is what is meant by what do you make?
Some people wish to make teaching a "special" case, as in dedicated,vocational, inspiring bunch of people who put the extra in everything they do - which is fine but then to hear we dont get paid enough, we dont get this, we dont get that, removes the profession from the special pedestal to straight forward "just doing a job that I want to be paid for "....you can't have your cake and eat it.
09-22-2011, 12:55 PM
#94
Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: A Yorkshire Brit living in Southern Sweden
Posts: 113
My experience comes from teaching younger children ... so that'll affect some of the answers. I don't actually want to defend teachers on this one as I do feel that teachers are only one of a number of professions where the job satisfaction and the vocational 'call' if you like is as significant as the pay, or lack of pay.
The toilet breaks and drink breaks will also be affected by the ages of the children - in general this is why teachers have those set break times, and hope that no children are 'missing ther break' as a punishment! Drinks on yard duty or drinks in the classroom will depend on local health and safety rules.
Regarding the material covered ... I was a new teacher during those years so although I had much prepared from my college days I was preparing each topic for the age group I had from a fairly basic starting point. There is usually a rolling programme of topics so it is quite plausible that within 5 years or so of beginning teaching a teacher should be able to just pull out the relevent box of resource, sheets, etc, and only need to tweak it a little to match the class concerned. This is probably why many schools won't allow teachers to teach more than 3 years in any one age group!
My time spent after the children had left the school was spent on marking (and lots of it, plus reports on the various behaviour issues addressed each day, I wasn't particularly fast at marking so you could allow a ballpark of an hour for each class that did written work ... Maths, English and one other subject perhaps) and then planning - including submitting detailed weekly plans to the head of department, and preparation for the following day's or week's lessons. However a fellow, very experienced, teacher used to leave at 9pm three nights a week - she was usually the last and had the locking-up duties. She did this so that she could be free every weekend.
I only mentioned Scouts as my personal reason for leaving school earlier that night, it's irrelevent to the discussion - as you pointed out. I didn't need permission from my employer to do so as it fell into what would probably be referred to as flexitime in some jobs, or non-directed time in others ... apart from the hours of the school day and certain meetings it is up to the teacher to decide how many extra hours to do, and when, and where, in order to be able to 'perform' in school.
The same with the 'Teachers being more deserving of longer holidays' 'more deserving than who' ... I don't know ... this is not my view and I stated that I don't defend the teacher's holiday allocation, I merely gave some explanations that I have heard ... I appreciate my holidays but I don't believe I have some tremendous right to them.
I'm now doing small groups work, private language tuition and native language support work within schools (Supporting English speakers in Swedish schools) and I still allow one hour of preparation time for each hour of contact time. I may not always use it all - for example if two classes are able to use the same material - but equally a battle with a comuter can push me over that time allowance!
Parents do take their children out of school for holidays, it's disapproved of and there are all kinds of measures to discourage it, but it does still happen - legitimately when the parents cannot get set weeks off work as holidays themselves, but also just because of the costs involved. I appreciate that the set school holidays cause a problem for others as well as for teachers ... I was merely addressing the questions and issues that apply to teachers, not denying that these apply to anyone else!
I haven't demanded additional pay for teachers, the original article was about the perception of teachers in society, what do thay achieve/make/ what is their value ... the debate about pay, conditions and holidays just seems to have developed from there.
Helen
The toilet breaks and drink breaks will also be affected by the ages of the children - in general this is why teachers have those set break times, and hope that no children are 'missing ther break' as a punishment! Drinks on yard duty or drinks in the classroom will depend on local health and safety rules.
Regarding the material covered ... I was a new teacher during those years so although I had much prepared from my college days I was preparing each topic for the age group I had from a fairly basic starting point. There is usually a rolling programme of topics so it is quite plausible that within 5 years or so of beginning teaching a teacher should be able to just pull out the relevent box of resource, sheets, etc, and only need to tweak it a little to match the class concerned. This is probably why many schools won't allow teachers to teach more than 3 years in any one age group!
My time spent after the children had left the school was spent on marking (and lots of it, plus reports on the various behaviour issues addressed each day, I wasn't particularly fast at marking so you could allow a ballpark of an hour for each class that did written work ... Maths, English and one other subject perhaps) and then planning - including submitting detailed weekly plans to the head of department, and preparation for the following day's or week's lessons. However a fellow, very experienced, teacher used to leave at 9pm three nights a week - she was usually the last and had the locking-up duties. She did this so that she could be free every weekend.
I only mentioned Scouts as my personal reason for leaving school earlier that night, it's irrelevent to the discussion - as you pointed out. I didn't need permission from my employer to do so as it fell into what would probably be referred to as flexitime in some jobs, or non-directed time in others ... apart from the hours of the school day and certain meetings it is up to the teacher to decide how many extra hours to do, and when, and where, in order to be able to 'perform' in school.
The same with the 'Teachers being more deserving of longer holidays' 'more deserving than who' ... I don't know ... this is not my view and I stated that I don't defend the teacher's holiday allocation, I merely gave some explanations that I have heard ... I appreciate my holidays but I don't believe I have some tremendous right to them.
I'm now doing small groups work, private language tuition and native language support work within schools (Supporting English speakers in Swedish schools) and I still allow one hour of preparation time for each hour of contact time. I may not always use it all - for example if two classes are able to use the same material - but equally a battle with a comuter can push me over that time allowance!
Parents do take their children out of school for holidays, it's disapproved of and there are all kinds of measures to discourage it, but it does still happen - legitimately when the parents cannot get set weeks off work as holidays themselves, but also just because of the costs involved. I appreciate that the set school holidays cause a problem for others as well as for teachers ... I was merely addressing the questions and issues that apply to teachers, not denying that these apply to anyone else!
I haven't demanded additional pay for teachers, the original article was about the perception of teachers in society, what do thay achieve/make/ what is their value ... the debate about pay, conditions and holidays just seems to have developed from there.
Helen
09-22-2011, 01:03 PM
#95
Super Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 4,541
Originally Posted by MandyM
Hmmm.... just wondering as someone who doesn't teach, how do most teachers spend the summer and half terms? My understanding is that the teacher receives a salary? so effectively are they are being paid for that holiday period? if they are being paid for that period then whatever they do during that period is in fact paid for? I am asking these questions to try and understand why teachers feel so under valued?
~I'm in my 8th year of teaching.
~BS - Chemistry, Biology, minored in Physics
~BA - Spanish, Education
~CEAS (Certificate of Eligibility with Advanced Standing)
~Teacher of ESL (English as a Second Language) Certificate
~Certified Bilingual Teacher
~Teacher of the Handicapped
~Masters in Education
Currently, I'm working on my Supervisors certificate, then Principals cert, and some of the credits I'm earning will lead to my Doctorates Degree.
(for the record, I'm 28. Graduated HS at just 16, finished up the Chem/Bio when I was 19, but changed my mind in what I wanted to do, so when I transferred Universities I was granted 2 degrees, the one for all the science credits I had, and the second for Spanish/Education!)
In the school I'm in:
~We don't have half terms. I teach from late August through the end of June.
Yes, I'm contracted - I receive a paycheck the week AFTER school starts, and my last paycheck the day school ends for the summer.
I do not get paid for July or August.
However, I DO work in July and August. I get told which classes/levels I'm teaching. I'm certified to teach from Kindergarden up to High School, and I also teach at community college, and I've applied to teach at two local universities as an adjunct professor.
I make up materials for the kids to use. I don't just use what's in a "book." Sometimes I think that book definitions are ridiculously hard for students to understand. I make up my own tests and quizzes. I change around ones from the past year(s). I re-think my lesson plans - what worked (what gave the students that AHA moment) and what didn't work and why. (Was it me, what could I have said differently, what activity could I have tried.. etc). If it was a lab, I TEST it out on my own a few different ways. I go on trips to different museums to further MY understanding of what I teach. I make lessons up from things that I purchase from my own pocket (that never gets reimbursed) in souvenir shops in those museums.
I do not get free hours during my day. Yes, I have one "planning period" but that is usually spent for me on the phone translating for parents who don't speak English - or me translating for a child who has just moved here.
I don't end my day when the final bell rings - I volunteer as an adviser for two clubs at the school, and I try to go to as many extra-curricular activities that my students participate in. Most of mine are considered "at risk".
For me - I don't teach because I want money, or a 'long vacation' - I teach because I want to HELP young people, and I want to share the things I love with someone else.
I teach because I'm passionate about my subjects. I teach because I love learning. I teach because I love a challenge - and one challenge is how to reach the 30 or so students - each with a different learning style, abilities and desires - and TRY and make them care.
And for me, all the degradation that my profession faces (and some of these questions honestly do bother me) fades away when I have one student come back and tell me, "Thank you for caring about me." That, for me, is what makes it all worthwhile - knowing that I have reached ONE life.
09-22-2011, 01:29 PM
#96
Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 49
Jennifer, you sound like one of the teachers that are to be applauded for your dedication. The tone of your post suggest you are well aware of the challenges involved in teaching and that you accept the ups and downs as part of the job. As you said - the reward of getting through to children is the ultimate reward, it is the reason you took teaching as your path in life.
09-24-2011, 08:42 AM
#98
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: WI
Posts: 706
Let's make a distinction here. The issue isn't respect but reverence. There seems to be a belief that it is reverence that is needed. There has been such an uproar from teachers they don't get enough respect that it really bags the question- how much is enough?
Several questions have been raised by others. The fact that teachers are on from 8-8 is far from true unless they are mandated to be at an event- grading work after class room hours is part of the job and the commitment to be there outside of class room hours for kids has become an anomaly not the norm. Only taking time off during holidays is also false- our kids have had subs more often than not as teacher after teacher takes time for this and that. Compensation time and pay for furthering their own degrees is a fact. Former full time teachers tell us they are so over booked for subbing jobs months in advance they have to stop answering the phone. Days are scheduled to compensate for conferences etc- cutting our children’s instructional time. How does the school system get away with it- easy, it’s called a ½ day which is just long enough to say they had a full day. Movies are shown in school that have no relation to lessons because well- we just thought they needed a break. Any parent who has been around the schools and honestly evaluates things will see these.
As for the teacher who feels they are burned out at the end of the year- guess what- so are the kids and parents.
I am a parent who advocates for those in the teaching profession who deserve it and hold those who task who need to be. I have written letters of reference and accommodation for those worthy of honors and accolades- who in their own words stated they asked me because they knew I was fair and honest.
I have taken on teachers, principals and superintendants in the good old boys club who felt they had free reign in their treatment of children and have defended those unable to speak up for themselves whether they be child or teacher.
My husband and I have worked our family lives around your homework regimen.
We have filled the growing cavern of instruction being stripped from their education as programs are cut and homework loads are out of control. We have taken our children from not meeting your minimal standards but shown them how to go way above and beyond by giving the tools that will serve them in every aspect of their life. We teach them to question and in so doing teach them to delve deeper and as a result they have a more comprehensive understanding then the child who simply takes your word as teacher at face value.
We have stayed up till wee hours of the morning trying to get the kids through projects- seems each teacher thinks theirs is the most important subject and needs extra work.
We have poured hours into friends of our kids who have come to us for help. We are appalled at the level of their work and knowledge- some we understand struggle even more as they have grown up in non-English speaking homes but that does not negate the teacher’s responsibility instead of passing them along from one grade to the next. We have walked with them through basic things they should have been taught by their class room teachers. These kids hunger so much for good input they suffer through hours of us critiquing and helping them work and rework their work. By the end of the school year we will have had a minimum of 20 meals out due to the fact our kitchen is ground zero for a major school project. By the end of the year- we will have spent a minimum of 3 hours a night to make sure the kids have their homework not just don’t but comprehend it. By the need of the year we will have had 3 computers and 4 jump drives on my husband’s desk needing repair or recovery of files no one else can access and without them the child’s work is gone and they fail. By the end of the year we will have had at least 15 weekends and countless phone calls with kids who are in need of intense help to make it through what they are not understanding or unequipped to do. By the end of the year we will have put our kids to bed late due to homework and drug them out early to be there for you. By the end of the year our kids will have been infected by some virus and missed classes for which they had to make up work a minimum of 4 weeks.
By the end of the year we will have sat down with at least one teacher who needs to se there is more then one way to teach a child and failing to reach that child is not an option.
Regards to degrees and a good education- What is a good education and when is it enough- more over who should be held responsible for the failure to give that education- should there be a malteaching law instituted so a person can sue teachers who failed to do their job if so then maybe a higher level of accountability needs to be instituted.
A good education does not teach humanity and humility- it is people.
As far as a good education assuring a good job -it does not.
We are aware of from others and personally that degrees etc can and do hurt. People have been passed over due to over qualification.
Many years ago I asked an employer as he when interviewing potential replacements for me as I was planning to move- why with all the people who came to him with such great resumes did he choose me, one who didn't even have any experience in the field.
His response was very forthright- you can teach anyone a skill but you can't teach them a personality. Most of these people are so full of what they have on paper they are real lemons.
An education is valuable but it is only part of who you are- and people do respect teachers they just feel reverence is not appropriate.
Several questions have been raised by others. The fact that teachers are on from 8-8 is far from true unless they are mandated to be at an event- grading work after class room hours is part of the job and the commitment to be there outside of class room hours for kids has become an anomaly not the norm. Only taking time off during holidays is also false- our kids have had subs more often than not as teacher after teacher takes time for this and that. Compensation time and pay for furthering their own degrees is a fact. Former full time teachers tell us they are so over booked for subbing jobs months in advance they have to stop answering the phone. Days are scheduled to compensate for conferences etc- cutting our children’s instructional time. How does the school system get away with it- easy, it’s called a ½ day which is just long enough to say they had a full day. Movies are shown in school that have no relation to lessons because well- we just thought they needed a break. Any parent who has been around the schools and honestly evaluates things will see these.
As for the teacher who feels they are burned out at the end of the year- guess what- so are the kids and parents.
I am a parent who advocates for those in the teaching profession who deserve it and hold those who task who need to be. I have written letters of reference and accommodation for those worthy of honors and accolades- who in their own words stated they asked me because they knew I was fair and honest.
I have taken on teachers, principals and superintendants in the good old boys club who felt they had free reign in their treatment of children and have defended those unable to speak up for themselves whether they be child or teacher.
My husband and I have worked our family lives around your homework regimen.
We have filled the growing cavern of instruction being stripped from their education as programs are cut and homework loads are out of control. We have taken our children from not meeting your minimal standards but shown them how to go way above and beyond by giving the tools that will serve them in every aspect of their life. We teach them to question and in so doing teach them to delve deeper and as a result they have a more comprehensive understanding then the child who simply takes your word as teacher at face value.
We have stayed up till wee hours of the morning trying to get the kids through projects- seems each teacher thinks theirs is the most important subject and needs extra work.
We have poured hours into friends of our kids who have come to us for help. We are appalled at the level of their work and knowledge- some we understand struggle even more as they have grown up in non-English speaking homes but that does not negate the teacher’s responsibility instead of passing them along from one grade to the next. We have walked with them through basic things they should have been taught by their class room teachers. These kids hunger so much for good input they suffer through hours of us critiquing and helping them work and rework their work. By the end of the school year we will have had a minimum of 20 meals out due to the fact our kitchen is ground zero for a major school project. By the end of the year- we will have spent a minimum of 3 hours a night to make sure the kids have their homework not just don’t but comprehend it. By the need of the year we will have had 3 computers and 4 jump drives on my husband’s desk needing repair or recovery of files no one else can access and without them the child’s work is gone and they fail. By the end of the year we will have had at least 15 weekends and countless phone calls with kids who are in need of intense help to make it through what they are not understanding or unequipped to do. By the end of the year we will have put our kids to bed late due to homework and drug them out early to be there for you. By the end of the year our kids will have been infected by some virus and missed classes for which they had to make up work a minimum of 4 weeks.
By the end of the year we will have sat down with at least one teacher who needs to se there is more then one way to teach a child and failing to reach that child is not an option.
Regards to degrees and a good education- What is a good education and when is it enough- more over who should be held responsible for the failure to give that education- should there be a malteaching law instituted so a person can sue teachers who failed to do their job if so then maybe a higher level of accountability needs to be instituted.
A good education does not teach humanity and humility- it is people.
As far as a good education assuring a good job -it does not.
We are aware of from others and personally that degrees etc can and do hurt. People have been passed over due to over qualification.
Many years ago I asked an employer as he when interviewing potential replacements for me as I was planning to move- why with all the people who came to him with such great resumes did he choose me, one who didn't even have any experience in the field.
His response was very forthright- you can teach anyone a skill but you can't teach them a personality. Most of these people are so full of what they have on paper they are real lemons.
An education is valuable but it is only part of who you are- and people do respect teachers they just feel reverence is not appropriate.
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