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Thread: Not to keep stirring the pot, but....

  1. #26
    Super Member jljack's Avatar
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    Even on some of the sites that we are all very familiar with there are statements about limiting use of the patterns provided there for free...I recently found a block I really loved, but it said I couldn't use it for a class. Guess what...I Googled the name of the block, and I found a pattern from the 1930s of that same block with the same name. I used that block for the class, because I took the "public domain" pattern instead of the one posted with limitations. There are ways around these things. You have to find an alternative source of the block pattern that is old enough to be public domain. Not as hard as it appears. Be creative!! Get a sketchbook and colored pencils and start designing your own. It's really not that hard.

  2. #27
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    The issue has always been who owns the property. There is a name for it but I am too tired to remember. A good movie/book adressing it is Ayn Rand's "The Fountainhead". The person who owns it can put any use limitations/restrictions they want. As someone suggested, best design your own or live with the restrictions. Essentially when you buy a design(emb. ) you can't change that much of it,claim it as your own or sell the design. This why they have copyright lawyers. Follow the money.

  3. #28
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    Should we be careful when we purchase food. Might be in small print for "FAMILY USE ONLY". Would that be cheating if we had a guest for a meal?
    Some people get to techinal with patterns.

  4. #29
    Senior Member Roben's Avatar
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    I've been designing for 27 years, and have had to familiarize myself with all of this stuff. I see a couple of things in these threads that worry me.

    Copyright doesn't need to be complicated for most people. If you are using someone else's work (be it patten, quilt, or picture of either) - they created it, and it is theirs. I respect their wishes or don't use it if I disagree. Very simple. Re-creating it in EQ, changing a few things, calling it inspiration - doesn't matter, and doesn't change the reality that it is based off of someone else's work. It just shows why designers are becoming more serious about protecting their work. I keep seeing 'who will know' and 'let them sue.'

    Copyright is complicated for those trying to protect their work - it can easily get out of the artist's control and cause them to involuntarily loose their rights. One very real aspect of this is people showing quilts at shows and not properly crediting the designer - allowing others to think it is completely their work. We have to diligently defend our copyrights to keep them because of the very 'borrowing' and attitudes that have been detailed in these threads.

    I have never seen or heard of a designer being unreasonable when approached about having a quilt shown in a quilt show. Permission to copy for 'guild use' or other uses is dangerous territory - it can so easily be misused. Some quilters are ruining it for everyone.

    I believe that we are seeing more public domain blocks used because, quite frankly, a truly original design is nothing more than a headache, and more designers are keeping them to themselves rather than fight with all this. I know I am.

  5. #30
    Power Poster Annaquilts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpspeedy
    I have a friend who is also a handquilter for hire. She did a quilt for a woman who won first place for "handquilting" at Paducha. The problem was she failed to tell the judges that it was not her work. When my friend objected the customer replied that she had paid her so the work belonged to her.
    Eventhough I feel the prize and any money should go to the person who payed for the hand quilting the credit should definitely go to the actually person who quilted the quilt. I always see labels that state designer, who pieced it and who quilted it. How can you pretent you quilted it when you did not.

  6. #31
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    A lot of this stuff-ok most of it-- is addressed in these articles. Relax ladies.

    http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/...uiltThis.shtml

    http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/...Quilting.shtml

  7. #32
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    Point in Question:I was opening other emails and linked to a crafting site and there was a pattern for sale on an item that someone else has given away as a "freebie" ...You want to bet I downloaded the freebie rather than pay $7.00 for a pattern. Perhaps King Solomon was right: :"There is nothing new under the sun"...just variations?

  8. #33
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    Isn't anyone related to an attorney that could answer this question?

  9. #34
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    Franie,
    I really don't understand why you were denied doing the pattern at a retreat. I mean it is possible a bunch of ladies could just be working on the same pattern at the same time. There's six people in my sewing group and one day three of us showed up doing the same pattern. It sure wasn't planned.

  10. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerrie1940
    Isn't anyone related to an attorney that could answer this question?
    I guess I just don't understand what the question is that's being asked at this point. After reading all of these threads, it seems to me that the conflict is between what copyright law does say, and what people wish copyright law said.

  11. #36
    Power Poster ube quilting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quilterguy27
    Another Mag with the same statement about who can make what for who and who has control over what you make. I've heard so many of you say you are cancelling your subscription of McCalls because of the copyright statement in the front of the magazine. Well, I just got my issue of Quilter's Home mag and it has the same statement in it. I'm only due one more issue and I won't be renewing my subscription to this mag or any other. I will be checking from now on. Thanks for the other thread about this topic! I just went and Googled Creative Crafts Group, LLC and Quilter's Home is under the same umbrella as McCalls as well as a bunch of other magazines, so if anyone else is thinking of discontinuing your subscription or for any other reason you might want to check them out, you can find out who has this statement in their magazine. Just my little rant. Thanks for listening!
    Okay! I have another question. How many people out there have actually had a problem because of CR laws? I've never met one person in the "common" community of quilters to have ever had a problem with this so what is the actual problem and how much damage is actually being done by us little people making quilts for our childeren, etc? I think we should all relax a little and keep on keeping on! I don't really think there are quilt police out there after us!

  12. #37
    Power Poster ube quilting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quilterguy27
    I knew I would be starting something again and sure enough, here we go again. I'm glad tho, cause I want to help get the word out that I agree with everything everyone has said. Most patterns are in the public domain and we should be able to do whatever the heck we want to with the patterns we buy. After all, we bought them, that makes them ours. Now, I also agree that if it is truely an "original design" the designer should have some control over it, but lets get real here. How many designs these days are truely original? I'd say very few to NONE. Make what you want and do with it what you want. Don't support those who try to suppress your creativity and control what you do with it. My opinion only. Take it or leave it!
    Hooray!

  13. #38
    Super Member Deborah12687's Avatar
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    I just think the copyright laws need to be revamped so people can understand them with out consulting with lawyers to figure it out. Some were along the line it needs to be interpated in common layman turns so we can under stand what we can and can't do. Instead we get legal garble that doesn't make much sense to the common person. I am willing to either get in contact with the copyright office or talk with a person who knows the laws and can tell us exactly what we can and can't do.

  14. #39
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    [quote=ube quilting]
    Quote Originally Posted by quilterguy27
    Now, I also agree that if it is truely an "original design" the designer should have some control over it,
    I totally agree that they should have some control but that control is whether to sell it or not! When they sell it they also sell the control.
    If I sell you my car I no longer have the right to tell you how to drive said car.
    IMHO

  15. #40
    Senior Member Robinlee's Avatar
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    Couldn't of said it better.

  16. #41
    Power Poster Sadiemae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerrie1940
    Isn't anyone related to an attorney that could answer this question?
    The problem is what side each attorney works for...

  17. #42
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    Until this matter is specifically herd in a court of LAW it will be up for interpretation.

    Thats why it takes lawyers years of schooling to become one so they can argue even when things seem clear.


    Just as McCall's has a lawyer saying what we cant do.
    I could find a lawyer to say that we can do anything we want with a quilt pattern other then sell the pattern.



    I will go with my original assumption and that is you can not copyright a useful good (ie: clothes, blankets, purses)
    They can copyright the pattern it self (the hard paper) so no one could copy and sell that.
    If they want to say that its artistic then I would argue that it would have to be able to be separate from the quilt to copyright and that if they do have a copyright on that I would argue that it is implied consent to make their art work since they put out a pattern.
    But thats just all hypothetically if I was ever in that situation.


    I do know a Lawyer his field is not Copyright but maybe I can give him a call and forward him the copyright stuff and see what he makes of the legal mumbo jumbo.

    I wasn't going to bother him but I think I want to know.

  18. #43
    Super Member hobo2000's Avatar
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    It is exactly like music. Everytime a record is played on TV or radio that station pays ASCAP or BMI money for playing that music. That's why its illegal for kids to download from underground sites for free and listen and pass on music because the people who made the recordings are being cheated out of their just payment. The designers make their money by charging us a price to USE their pattern for our own quilts. It is illegal for me to give you a copy of the pattern or make a quilt from the pattern to sell. That is making money off someone else's Intellectual Property. However, if I design a quilt and it uses a new block I came up with plus some old timy blocks, I can get a copyright on the entire design. No one really "gives" you a copyright. You go on line fill out the form and submit it with your money and you have your copyright.

  19. #44
    Super Member Deborah12687's Avatar
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    The U.S. Constitution provides the legal basis for the grant of copyright protection in the United States. According to the Constitution, "Congress shall have power...to promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries. Copyrights and patents are the only forms of intellectual property with an historical basis in the Constitution. All other forms of intellectual property rely on common or statutory law for their authority.

    Learn More
    •How Trademarks Work

    •How Intellectual Property Works

    •ScienceChannel.com: Top 10 Accidental Inventions


    Over the years, Congress has enacted a number of statues that define the rights that authors have in their creations, but all of these statutes derive their authority from the Constitution. In this article, you will learn what a copyright is and how it comes into existence.

    A copyright protects the expression of an idea. Unlike a patent, which protects the idea itself, a copyright protects only the expression. The idea for a new mouse trap can be protected by a patent while the expression of that idea through drawings, pictures and words can be protected by a copyright.

    A copyright comes into existence as soon as the work is fixed in a tangible medium of expression, so copyright exists in a work as soon as the author completes the music composition or play. The author of the work initially owns the copyright. However, ownership of the right may be transferred to others. If the work is created by an employee, the employer is considered to be the author and owns the copyright as a work for hire.

    As the owner of the copyright, the author has the exclusive right to make copies of the work, display and perform the work publicly and to distribute copies of the work to the public. These exclusive rights last for the life of the author plus 70 years. The copyright in a work made for hire, however, lasts for a fixed term of 95 years from the date of the work's creation.

    In order to qualify for copyright protection, a work must be original to the author. To be original, the work:

    1.must have been independently created by the author rather than being copied from other work(s) and
    2.must have at least a minimal degree of creativity
    If these two conditions are not met, the work will not qualify as original and is not entitled to copyright protection. However, a work still qualifies for copyright protection if it includes non-original elements. For example, if an author rearranges non-original elements in an original way, the compilation will be considered original and qualify for copyright protection.
    It is important to note that a copyright protects only the expression of an idea. It does not protect any functional features or characteristics of the work.

    This is what I came up with from one website on copyright. Atleast it gives some idea how it works.

  20. #45
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    I guess rule #2 is our answer............

  21. #46
    Super Member quilterguy27's Avatar
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    Thanks Deborah! This helped clear the muddy water a bit. I don't know if I'm just dumb or what, but I STILL don't get it. Is there a way to interpret this into laymans terms so we can all understand it?

    I know I'm not that dumb. I've been college educated. I know it can't be just me that can't grasp this concept. I've read so many articles and statutes and stories on this website and that concerning copyright laws and who can do what and I'm just as confused now as ever. I really think they do this on purpose just to keep us confused. If we don't understand it, maybe we won't challenge it.

  22. #47
    Junior Member Bobbin along's Avatar
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    Well, just for the record, my avatar is called Fireworks, and it was designed by Renee Peterson. It does have elements of New York Beauty, but believe me, there is a whole lot of creativity that went into this. I asked her permission to use it on line (I made the one shown here) and she told me to "Go forth and show people what you are doing!" It is copywrited and appeared in McCall's mag at the end of the year, 2009.

    There now my conscience is clear! Thanks, Renee!

  23. #48
    Super Member Deborah12687's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quilterguy27
    Thanks Deborah! This helped clear the muddy water a bit. I don't know if I'm just dumb or what, but I STILL don't get it. Is there a way to interpret this into laymans terms so we can all understand it?

    I know I'm not that dumb. I've been college educated. I know it can't be just me that can't grasp this concept. I've read so many articles and statutes and stories on this website and that concerning copyright laws and who can do what and I'm just as confused now as ever. I really think they do this on purpose just to keep us confused. If we don't understand it, maybe we won't challenge it.
    Just wanted to say you are not the dumb one here nor any one else on this board. For the life of me why can't they spell it out in plain language....they are the dumb people by making things so complicated. I am really tempted to send a letter to McCalls maybe we should "ALL" write a letter.

  24. #49
    community benefactor Conniequilts's Avatar
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    This will tick lots of people off I am sure (and I apologize ahead of time).

    Can any of you, who have copyrighted your patterns, prove you have NOT ever repeated a naturally created pattern from someone back in the 1800's? Before copyright laws existed?

    If you can't, then how can you copyright it, how can you call it original?. It is not someone else's work and you are "stealing" credit from them?

    Are you calling it original because you took "their" original blocks and placed them in a differnt order?

    I don't know, I'm sure someone is now angry with me and wants to argue and I apologize, but am thinking nothing is original cuz it all started WAY BACK WHEN.

    Just my right or wrong thoughts again, don't hate me :(

  25. #50
    Super Member quiltmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conniequilts
    This will tick lots of people off I am sure (and I apologize ahead of time).

    Can any of you, who have copyrighted your patterns, prove you have NOT ever repeated a naturally created pattern from someone back in the 1800's? Before copyright laws existed?

    If you can't, then how can you copyright it, how can you call it original?. It is not someone else's work and you are "stealing" credit from them?

    Are you calling it original because you took "their" original blocks and placed them in a differnt order?

    I don't know, I'm sure someone is now angry with me and wants to argue and I apologize, but am thinking nothing is original cuz it all started WAY BACK WHEN.

    Just my right or wrong thoughts again, don't hate me :(
    Don't worry I agree with you 100%!!!!!!

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