My sister's save - White VS 1
08-06-2014, 06:20 AM
#41
Super Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 8,135
I looked at my photobucket site - and it looks like I never shared a picture of my $10 "save". It was the top of a White treadle cabinet (no drawers though) with a VS2 machine (like above) inside. It was in the back "junk" room of an antique shop and I resisted the first day, but I felt really bad knowing it would either go in the trash or become a tractor - so the next day when we were going past, we stopped and picked it up.
08-07-2014, 06:26 AM
#42
Super Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 8,135
Here is the machine I picked up in the treadle top for $10.
I found the box of attachments, and it had two extra shuttles and 6 bobbins in is - and I looked and the above machine also had the shuttle and a bobbin still in it (probably a big reason I bought it in the first place).
I've got at least 8 white shuttles on hand, so I"m sure I can spare one - send me a PM if interested.
I found the box of attachments, and it had two extra shuttles and 6 bobbins in is - and I looked and the above machine also had the shuttle and a bobbin still in it (probably a big reason I bought it in the first place).
I've got at least 8 white shuttles on hand, so I"m sure I can spare one - send me a PM if interested.
08-07-2014, 04:59 PM
#43
Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 17
Thanks, MacyBaby!
Originally Posted by Macybaby
oh - as to shuttles, I may be able to help you if the eBay prices are too steep for you. I'll have to look as I've parted with a few already, but think I may have gotten another one in set of non- White attachments. I end up with all kinds of interesting items that come with boxes of Attachments that I'm after (including automotive points). I'm not in the business of selling, but I don't need to hang on to all the extras either.
I went and found a more "useable" 1923 Singer Model 66 Redeye...in nearly new condition...a little dirty and has a small wear spot where an inner wooden piece of the treadle cabinet that was supposed to "clamp" the machine head in place when closed (either added or designed that way) pressed on the machine head in one spot. The wood had no cushion on it or anything, so it slightly messed with one small part of a decal. It's not rubbed off, but just damaged slightly there. The machine came with some accessories and 4 bobbins, and an original manual in good shape (except missing the back cover). The thing was owned by a guy whose mother owned it and had inherited it from her mother in law...so it was a single family machine.
But this white seems to be a little unique, and I'd like to get it in working order...starting with needing a shuttle. As it turns out, it does have an original top clamp setup, and it has some nice original low-shank accessories to match....very heavy-made and chromed. I have a single bobbin that fits, and I think it just needs some cleaning, oiling and a shuttle, to try it out.
Thanks for all the info, and when I can I'll try to take some pics of it, and post them here. I love old machinery, but I think I could get sucked into collecting sewing machines, so I may just sell this one when I get it in a little better shape. On second thought, I'm sure I'm gonna keep it...it's too neat!
BTW, what is the safest, gentllest way to clean these old machines, so that I don't damage the paint or especially the seemingly fragile decals? Also, though they call these "decals," are they really that?...or were they painted on or stenciled? To me a decal is an applique. Is that why they are so fragile (it would seem)?
Thanks again!
-Dave
Last edited by vdot; 08-07-2014 at 05:11 PM.
08-07-2014, 08:28 PM
#44
Super Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 8,135
There is a sticky at the top that has info about cleaning - an yes, they are decals - applied on top of the paint and then a protective coat (shellac) put on over the top. The shellac wears off (or get mistakenly cleaned off) and then the decals start wearing off.
08-09-2014, 03:32 AM
#45
Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 17
OK, here's a long dissertation on restoring sewing machines, as I see it. Who am I to have an opinion on the subject when I am just a newbie to sewing machines? Well, I'm not a newbie to restoring metal and metalwork, I'm adept artistically...and I have always loved fine machinery of all kinds. SO....
I looked at all the cleaning methods both here and on ISMACS...which got into restoration, and I think that their methods are OK (if not harsh) for "museum restoration"-type approaches, but since there is no huge market value in "rare" sewing machines (do any sell for hundred of thousands of dollars?), and since there is no way around the "re-doing" of a rough machine to get it back to anything resembling it's original glory, and since re-doing is not "original" regardless of your approach....with an old machine that is rough, I'd much prefer a total makeover...complete finish-replacement, using modern finishing materials which are far superior in every way to old japanning and varnish.
In the case of my White VS-2, which has very nice metal but very little decal-ing left, I can sandblast the metal, spray it with synthetic coatings that will not scratch...like a car finish. Then I can duplicate the decal-ing from pictures of the same model (VS-2) and from "before" pictures...hand paint it...again with superior coatings. And finally, I can give multiple clear coats of a super hard polymer coating. I can then either buff and clear coat the shiny metal parts, or even re-chrome any thing that was chromed but rusted. If necessary, I could even get my buddy to machine any plates I need...from polished stainless if I wish. The machine would truly be better than original, and ready for twice the 125-odd years that it's lasted already....it could look better in 250 years, than it does today. I don't see that this approach takes a dang thing away from the machine at all. All of the essence of the machine...it's BUILD...it's beautiful mechanical workings...would remain intact. Only it's clothing would change, and that would be twice as good as original, yet look closer to original (ie: new) than if it had been "restored" using old techniques and to the degree that Glenn or Graham recommend, which leaves it's flaws still readily apparent. Call it's weathered, damaged facade "character" if you wish, but I'll take the machine's original character back any day, and start a whole new life together with it.
Don't care what Glenn or Graham think about this approach. I only agree with their approach in a situation where you have very significant original/new condition to begin with...THEN a museum restore makes sense (as in my 1923 66 Redeye...excellent original condition). If you have a machine whose condition doesn't really represent it's original glory, then "restoring" using original technique makes no real sense...it's still not "original" when you've messed with it (ie: when finished). And remaking it in a spectacular way with modern materials does no more harm to it than what they do in "restoring" it with old methods. You can always sandblast my spectacularly-remade machine and start over with original techniques...including remaking original decals if you wish. Truly, what does it matter it the machine's facade is half gone (or more) to begin with?
If you have a machine in ANY condition, and you want be true to maintaining it as original (ie: a TRUE museum piece), you cannot tinker with it except in the very minimalist fashion, so as to maintain it in it's current state and prevent further deterioration. Now THAT is the ONLY way to be true to preserving the actual original essence of the machine. You would never polish a rare coin, for example...or ANY museum piece, except in rare circumstance. Instead, you would simply arrest any deterioration, and place it in an environment which will protect it from further deterioration. So what Glenn and Graham do is not in reality any more "preservative" than what I would prefer to do in a restoration project. In my opinion, it is actually less so, since my methods would truly preserve the metal machine from deterioration much better than their use of original old materials and techniques. Theirs would simply preserve what's left of it's haggard looks.
That's the way I see it. I'd be much happier owning and USING a brand spankin' new 1880-90's White VS machine, than an ol' nag that I'm forever worrying about knocking off a piece of decal from her nose. I think I'd be honoring her and her makers more by a complete makeover than by a bath, a callus-sanding and corn-removal, any day, and I think they'd like it better if they were around, too, so long as I kept their same original motif. That part I'd faithfully reproduce by hand painted artwork...again, superior to decals.
That's the arduous and ardent makeover I have planned with ole Vicky Sue, too. (VS-2)
Now my Singin' Betty Red-Eyes, she'll be restored, since she's purty to begin with, and I'll just keep her as she is. I just hope she doesn't get jealous...
One last note...of course, by it's very nature, woodwork is ALWAYS a "restore" unless it's rotten, and then it's either get a new piece somewhere or build your own. That's because it has no underlying structure that is not directly related to it's outward appearance. That is not the case with a metal machine. It has both an inner and outer beauty. Therein lies the difference, the way I see it.
I looked at all the cleaning methods both here and on ISMACS...which got into restoration, and I think that their methods are OK (if not harsh) for "museum restoration"-type approaches, but since there is no huge market value in "rare" sewing machines (do any sell for hundred of thousands of dollars?), and since there is no way around the "re-doing" of a rough machine to get it back to anything resembling it's original glory, and since re-doing is not "original" regardless of your approach....with an old machine that is rough, I'd much prefer a total makeover...complete finish-replacement, using modern finishing materials which are far superior in every way to old japanning and varnish.
In the case of my White VS-2, which has very nice metal but very little decal-ing left, I can sandblast the metal, spray it with synthetic coatings that will not scratch...like a car finish. Then I can duplicate the decal-ing from pictures of the same model (VS-2) and from "before" pictures...hand paint it...again with superior coatings. And finally, I can give multiple clear coats of a super hard polymer coating. I can then either buff and clear coat the shiny metal parts, or even re-chrome any thing that was chromed but rusted. If necessary, I could even get my buddy to machine any plates I need...from polished stainless if I wish. The machine would truly be better than original, and ready for twice the 125-odd years that it's lasted already....it could look better in 250 years, than it does today. I don't see that this approach takes a dang thing away from the machine at all. All of the essence of the machine...it's BUILD...it's beautiful mechanical workings...would remain intact. Only it's clothing would change, and that would be twice as good as original, yet look closer to original (ie: new) than if it had been "restored" using old techniques and to the degree that Glenn or Graham recommend, which leaves it's flaws still readily apparent. Call it's weathered, damaged facade "character" if you wish, but I'll take the machine's original character back any day, and start a whole new life together with it.
Don't care what Glenn or Graham think about this approach. I only agree with their approach in a situation where you have very significant original/new condition to begin with...THEN a museum restore makes sense (as in my 1923 66 Redeye...excellent original condition). If you have a machine whose condition doesn't really represent it's original glory, then "restoring" using original technique makes no real sense...it's still not "original" when you've messed with it (ie: when finished). And remaking it in a spectacular way with modern materials does no more harm to it than what they do in "restoring" it with old methods. You can always sandblast my spectacularly-remade machine and start over with original techniques...including remaking original decals if you wish. Truly, what does it matter it the machine's facade is half gone (or more) to begin with?
If you have a machine in ANY condition, and you want be true to maintaining it as original (ie: a TRUE museum piece), you cannot tinker with it except in the very minimalist fashion, so as to maintain it in it's current state and prevent further deterioration. Now THAT is the ONLY way to be true to preserving the actual original essence of the machine. You would never polish a rare coin, for example...or ANY museum piece, except in rare circumstance. Instead, you would simply arrest any deterioration, and place it in an environment which will protect it from further deterioration. So what Glenn and Graham do is not in reality any more "preservative" than what I would prefer to do in a restoration project. In my opinion, it is actually less so, since my methods would truly preserve the metal machine from deterioration much better than their use of original old materials and techniques. Theirs would simply preserve what's left of it's haggard looks.
That's the way I see it. I'd be much happier owning and USING a brand spankin' new 1880-90's White VS machine, than an ol' nag that I'm forever worrying about knocking off a piece of decal from her nose. I think I'd be honoring her and her makers more by a complete makeover than by a bath, a callus-sanding and corn-removal, any day, and I think they'd like it better if they were around, too, so long as I kept their same original motif. That part I'd faithfully reproduce by hand painted artwork...again, superior to decals.
That's the arduous and ardent makeover I have planned with ole Vicky Sue, too. (VS-2)
Now my Singin' Betty Red-Eyes, she'll be restored, since she's purty to begin with, and I'll just keep her as she is. I just hope she doesn't get jealous...
One last note...of course, by it's very nature, woodwork is ALWAYS a "restore" unless it's rotten, and then it's either get a new piece somewhere or build your own. That's because it has no underlying structure that is not directly related to it's outward appearance. That is not the case with a metal machine. It has both an inner and outer beauty. Therein lies the difference, the way I see it.
Last edited by vdot; 08-09-2014 at 03:36 AM.
08-10-2014, 02:28 PM
#46
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Western Washington State
Posts: 548
vdot
You make some very valid points. It is always interesting to have a new perspective on our old machines. When I bought my first VS Singer, about 15% of the decals were left. It deserved a better look, even if it meant going solid black. Now when I sew with it, those worn out decals don't ruin the mood. I appreciate it for what it is, a very solid and dependable handcrank (with an aftermarket crank). Thanks for posting!
You make some very valid points. It is always interesting to have a new perspective on our old machines. When I bought my first VS Singer, about 15% of the decals were left. It deserved a better look, even if it meant going solid black. Now when I sew with it, those worn out decals don't ruin the mood. I appreciate it for what it is, a very solid and dependable handcrank (with an aftermarket crank). Thanks for posting!
08-11-2014, 12:59 AM
#47
Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 17
White VS's
Originally Posted by redbugsullivan
vdot
You make some very valid points. It is always interesting to have a new perspective on our old machines. When I bought my first VS Singer, about 15% of the decals were left. It deserved a better look, even if it meant going solid black. Now when I sew with it, those worn out decals don't ruin the mood. I appreciate it for what it is, a very solid and dependable handcrank (with an aftermarket crank). Thanks for posting!
You make some very valid points. It is always interesting to have a new perspective on our old machines. When I bought my first VS Singer, about 15% of the decals were left. It deserved a better look, even if it meant going solid black. Now when I sew with it, those worn out decals don't ruin the mood. I appreciate it for what it is, a very solid and dependable handcrank (with an aftermarket crank). Thanks for posting!
I was afraid some might suggest a lynching, thinking I was attacking some established vintage SM community members' views, but I felt strongly about my logic and feeling behind the when and whys of going for a remake on oldies but goodies.
Your Singer VS's percentage of decals is more than that which my White VS2 has left...only 5-10%.
On a different subject, I just learned why Whites turn/crank the direction they do (versus Singers). The first Whites all came with a hand crank to get them started (which I guess was easily disengaged), and their engineers felt hand cranks are more-naturally turned clockwise, or "pushed" (which I agree with). So they built the internals to work that way, and apparently just kept with it. I assume Singers probably all weren't made with cranks early on, and their engineers found the motion of "pulling" a handwheel which has no crank, easier than "pushing" (which I happen to agree with, too). You can see one example of how White may have made their early White machines' handcranks, by looking at the "end view" picture of a White Peerless at this site:
http://www.sewmuse.co.uk/white.htm
It got me to thinking that I might like to get an after-market hand-crank for mine, or make one. I'd also love to have a White Gem or White Prize.
I found this new info in the following book, which has some extremely good info in it, if you like sewing machines. Being a download on Project Gutenberg, it is all text, and has no illustrations (just place-holders). I would like to get a printed copy of it for my library. I also found a great little table of needles needed for almost all of the White shuttle machines (which was hard to find). I found it on an English website, which has some other great info (it's actually a Singer site):
http://www.singersewinginfo.co.uk/antiques/white/
I'll post my rendition of the table below this book info:
====== Book Info =================================
The Project Gutenberg EBook of The Invention of the Sewing Machine, by
Grace Rogers Cooper
This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with
almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or
re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included
with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.net
Title: The Invention of the Sewing Machine
Author: Grace Rogers Cooper
Release Date: June 4, 2010 [EBook #32677]
Language: English
Character set encoding: ASCII
*** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK INVENTION OF THE SEWING MACHINE ***
Produced by Chris Curnow, Joseph Cooper, Louise Pattison
and the Online Distributed Proofreading Team at
http://www.pgdp.net
SMITHSONIAN INSTITUTION
UNITED STATES NATIONAL MUSEUM
[Illustration]
BULLETIN 254
WASHINGTON, D.C.
1968
[Illustration]
THE SMITHSONIAN INSTITUTION PRESS
_The Invention
Of the Sewing Machine_
[Illustration]
_Grace Rogers Cooper_
CURATOR OF TEXTILES
MUSEUM OF HISTORY AND TECHNOLOGY
SMITHSONIAN INSTITUTION WASHINGTON, D.C. 1968
_Publications of the United States National Museum_
====== End of Book Info ====================================
Here's the White Shuttle Machines' Needle table:
White Sewing Machines - Needle Chart*
Model White Singer Boye
White VS's (except those listed) FS 20x1 12
White Boat Shuttle RS 1x1 20
White VS8 WSM 15x1 16
White Gem 16x1 Round Shank
White Prize FS 20x1 12
White Automatic Chain Stitch WSM 1x11/25x1 Round Shank 20-1/2
White Rotary WSM 15x1 16
*-Flat Shank except as listed
I hope this is useful to others with Whites as much as it was me.
-Dave
Last edited by vdot; 08-11-2014 at 01:13 AM. Reason: Typos (or Typbs)
08-11-2014, 01:29 AM
#48
Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 17
Sorry for the formatting of the Needle Table on my post above. This forum strips out spaces and tabs needed for makin the columns. Those columns were:
Model --------------> White----------------> Singer----------------> Boye
Not all Models have values for all of the needle manufacturers' "needle #," and some needle numbers have descriptions behind them. For newbies like me, the way to sort the table out is that the Singer needle numbers are in a format that looks like "15x1," White's are FS, RS or WSM, and Boye's are 12, 16, 20 or 20-1/2.
Or just go to the site that I mentioned in the post above (if it's still around when you read this at some future time...if there is a future in the future...now I'm getting weird...but it's late...and my dog is snoring next to me...now THAT's weird...and the fact that I'm typing a post on a quilting board at 4:30am is SUPER weird).
Model --------------> White----------------> Singer----------------> Boye
Not all Models have values for all of the needle manufacturers' "needle #," and some needle numbers have descriptions behind them. For newbies like me, the way to sort the table out is that the Singer needle numbers are in a format that looks like "15x1," White's are FS, RS or WSM, and Boye's are 12, 16, 20 or 20-1/2.
Or just go to the site that I mentioned in the post above (if it's still around when you read this at some future time...if there is a future in the future...now I'm getting weird...but it's late...and my dog is snoring next to me...now THAT's weird...and the fact that I'm typing a post on a quilting board at 4:30am is SUPER weird).
Last edited by vdot; 08-11-2014 at 01:40 AM.
08-11-2014, 02:26 AM
#49
Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 17
White's Website...the first and the last times it was seen...
White's website for the first time it was seen on the internet (or at least saved):
http://web.archive.org/web/200201262....com/index.asp
And the last time:
http://web.archive.org/web/201001301....com/index.asp
...kind of sad...
http://web.archive.org/web/200201262....com/index.asp
And the last time:
http://web.archive.org/web/201001301....com/index.asp
...kind of sad...
08-12-2014, 08:07 AM
#50
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: San Lorenzo, CA
Posts: 5,361
vdot. While I certainly do not recommend or condone lynching of any sort, I would personally say that simply stating personal experience/opinion vs making what sound more like pronouncements, might go down easier for the majority of folks.
For example, I completely disagree with the following "modern finishing materials which are far superior in every way to old japanning and varnish." especially when stated as if it were obvious to anyone with brains, as opposed to simply being your opinion. I do not believe that modern finishes are stronger or better, just cheaper to mass produce and apply.
Sandblasting (I HOPE you actually meant media blasting) can be useful is cases of machines that are totally shot, but I have two parts machines that are that because some clever monkey blasted them and removed enough material to effect the fit and function.
FYI - I have a thread on here from when I first began that shows the whole process i went through to take a 100% rusted, 2% design remaining machine to a repaint. I used modern paints. If I were to do it now (and I may strip it again and redo it better) I would NOT use modern paints, but the reproduction Japanning. The finish is different in look and feel. The closest you can get to the old look that I have found is the high heat ceramic paint. It has the viscosity to create the similar look and feel.
As to re-manufacturing parts, of course we can and do it all the time, but realize that you cannot buy steel of the quality originally used in most of the pre WW2 today without spending more that a parts machine in better shape would cost. (Time-Money-Effort equation does not really balance to make parts for most machines)
My particular case is a bit different in that I only collect 19th century machines and most do have historical and financial value. I am actually more in your court that you might guess from my post here, because I also feel that the best way to honor the engineering if these machines is to use them, and with that in mind I go through my own process which I refer to as removing the neglect. I do not repaint, but I do remove the patina and return the machine to a clean and operational state while allowing it to still have its battle scars.
Bottom line is you own your machine and have every right to do as you will, but others, including myself, might feel sad or a sense of loss with your choices... But I hope you enjoy them none the less!!
For example, I completely disagree with the following "modern finishing materials which are far superior in every way to old japanning and varnish." especially when stated as if it were obvious to anyone with brains, as opposed to simply being your opinion. I do not believe that modern finishes are stronger or better, just cheaper to mass produce and apply.
Sandblasting (I HOPE you actually meant media blasting) can be useful is cases of machines that are totally shot, but I have two parts machines that are that because some clever monkey blasted them and removed enough material to effect the fit and function.
FYI - I have a thread on here from when I first began that shows the whole process i went through to take a 100% rusted, 2% design remaining machine to a repaint. I used modern paints. If I were to do it now (and I may strip it again and redo it better) I would NOT use modern paints, but the reproduction Japanning. The finish is different in look and feel. The closest you can get to the old look that I have found is the high heat ceramic paint. It has the viscosity to create the similar look and feel.
As to re-manufacturing parts, of course we can and do it all the time, but realize that you cannot buy steel of the quality originally used in most of the pre WW2 today without spending more that a parts machine in better shape would cost. (Time-Money-Effort equation does not really balance to make parts for most machines)
My particular case is a bit different in that I only collect 19th century machines and most do have historical and financial value. I am actually more in your court that you might guess from my post here, because I also feel that the best way to honor the engineering if these machines is to use them, and with that in mind I go through my own process which I refer to as removing the neglect. I do not repaint, but I do remove the patina and return the machine to a clean and operational state while allowing it to still have its battle scars.
Bottom line is you own your machine and have every right to do as you will, but others, including myself, might feel sad or a sense of loss with your choices... But I hope you enjoy them none the less!!
Last edited by SteveH; 08-12-2014 at 08:09 AM.
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